About E-M44


Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:12 pm
Message from a ysearch user
Posta in arrivo
dphelps61@alumni.wfu.edu
09:43 (10 ore fa)
a me
Dear Gioiello Tognoni,
A Ysearch user has sent you a message regarding your Ysearch account.
Your User ID: AFERN
Your Last Name: Anonymous Italian
We have not disclosed your email address to the sender. Should you wish to reply to this user, simply click Reply in your email program and an email will automatically be addressed to the sender. The message contents follow:
Name: Douglas Phelps
Email: dphelps61@alumni.wfu.edu
Message: I am the project admin for the e1a1 project at FTDNA. Based on your strs you would be an E1a1 man. It would be good to have your as a member but unfortunately you have to have tested at ftdna. Our project is at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/e1a1/default.aspx Perhaps we can discuss?
This email was sent to gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com
Gioiello Tognoni <gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com>
17:23 (2 ore fa)
a dphelps61
Hi Phelps, from the format of my account I think you should have realized that it comes from some paper (17 markers) and of course I am not that person, as, like in any papers, they are anonymous.
I put it on Ysearch for studying it. You probably know that, as I am saying from many years, hg. E wasn't born in Africa but probably is due to a back migration from Eurasia. I was just trying to understand its pathway. It seems to me that the linked Jewish E-M44 is an unique recent haplotype, very likely not from Ancient Israel but introgressed from somewhere. I was trying to understand from where. Of course its presence in Africa is old, even though I think having demonstrated that some European haplotypes may be very old and come from the old Eurasian hg. E and not recently from Africa.
I think having demonstrated on eng.molgen the pathway of E-Z830/DYS472=9. All forums linked to FTDNA ban me (my theories are dangerous for them), but I continue my studies and my researches.
Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni
2014-06-26 9:43 GMT+08:00 <dphelps61@alumni.wfu.edu>:
Doug Phelps
19:21 (38 minuti fa)
a me
Mr. Tognoni, thanks so much for the reply. Your thoughts may not be too far removed from some of our theories. We have an in-progress web site at https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupe1a1/ Note the papers written by Robert Hall, highlighted in the center column.
Regarding the paper markers, perhaps I should grasp it clearly, but I don’t. Are you saying the markers were entered theoretically or that they represent some anonymous but tested person?
I would appreciate some direct links to your arguments at eng.molgen.org regarding the back migration. Have there been scholarly research articles on that? I recall one of some years back which did not garner wide support.
We are certainly open to various opinions on our independent E1a1 private google forum, but it is limited to those who have tested at ftdna because of the data presentation provided by the official project at ftdna.
Respectfully,
Doug Phelps
From: Gioiello Tognoni [mailto:gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:23 AM
To: dphelps61@alumni.wfu.edu
Subject: Re: Message from a ysearch user
No virus found in this message.
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Gioiello Tognoni <gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com>
19:59 (1 minuto fa)
a Doug
16 12 30 22 9 12 13 16,17 1 >>
1 16 12 30 22 9 12 13 16,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 222 Latium, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
16 12 31 22 9 12 13 16,16 1 >>
1 16 12 31 22 9 12 13 16,16 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 108 Cape Town, South Africa [European Afrikaner] Eurasian - European - Western European Africa
16 12 31 22 9 12 13 17,17 1 >>
1 16 12 31 22 9 12 13 17,17 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 81 Liguria, Italy [Italian] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe

Dear Phelps, you may find these close haplotypes on YHRD, and seems to me that the center is ITALY. I don't remember where I found the AFERN haplotype, but I may find it in the future. Certainly it is a real Italian sample from some paper, and the two close hts on YYHRD strengthen this. AFERN has DYS 448=19-20,
I have been tested from FTDNA, but I am R-Z2110* (H1614).
You may find my posts on Rootsweb (those that they didn't delete), DNA-Forums, Worldfamilies, Anthrogenica, "Dienekes' Anthropology Blog", Maju's blog etc., but now I write only on eng.molgen.
Regards, GioielloTognoni
2014-06-26 19:21 GMT+08:00 Doug Phelps <dkphelps@suddenlink.net>:

Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:02 am
Gioiello wrote:Dear Phelps, you may find these close haplotypes on YHRD, and seems to me that the center is ITALY. I don't remember where I found the AFERN haplotype, but I may find it in the future. Certainly it is a real Italian sample from some paper, and the two close hts on YYHRD strengthen this. AFERN has DYS 448=19-20,


The sample is from Niederstaetter et al 2012:

ETY_001 A A A yes yes 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 10 12 16 19,20 17 15 21 12 E-M96*

Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:17 am
These are the samples of E-M96 in Niederstaetter et al. 2012:

ETY_001 A A A yes yes 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 10 12 16 19,20 17 15 21 12 E-M96*
ETY_002 A A A yes yes 14 14 31 23 9 11 14 16,17 9 13 14 20 15 16 22 12 E-M96*
ETY_036 B B n.a. yes no 13 13 31 24 10 11 13 17,18 10 12 14 20 17 19 24 11 E-M96*
User avatar
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:32 am
Gioiello wrote:
Gioiello wrote:Dear Phelps, you may find these close haplotypes on YHRD, and seems to me that the center is ITALY. I don't remember where I found the AFERN haplotype, but I may find it in the future. Certainly it is a real Italian sample from some paper, and the two close hts on YYHRD strengthen this. AFERN has DYS 448=19-20,


The sample is from Niederstaetter et al 2012:

ETY_001 A A A yes yes 17 12 29 22 9 12 13 15,15 10 12 16 19,20 17 15 21 12 E-M96*



agree, but how useful if YHRD ?

The DYS385 of 15,15 ( above) is always known as a quick change DYS

Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:12 am
stoeni wrote:agree, but how useful if YHRD ?

The DYS385 of 15,15 ( above) is always known as a quick change DYS


DYS385 isn't a so fast mutating marker, above all DYS385a (even though we don't know which is a or b without a specific test), but R1a and R1b are modal at 11-14 and 14-11 after more than 30000years. But what is important is that Jewish E-M44 has only 15-17 and a very few samples with some mutations, Italy has more variance, and 15-15 may come from a RecLOH or from autonomous mutations.
Thus Jewish E-M44 is a recent introgression. Italy, also in this rare hg E diffused above all in Northern Africa, has more variance and an older presence.
YHRD is very useful because has samples all over the world and is more important than FTDNA, which has samples biased about the Isles and Jewish people.
Italy, a little tested, has the highest variance of R1b1/L389*, and I think having demonstrated its origin, 1 sample also in Niederstaetter, different from all the other known so far.

Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:38 pm
E-M44
I wrote these posts last year on eng.molgen. Now I have had access to the haplotypes form Figuig many are speaking about on Anthrogenica. H42,43,44 belong to this haplogroup with DYS448=19-20. The samples begin with haplotype number, DYS392, DYS437:

DYS448 GATA_H4.1 DYS389II DYS439 DYS635 DYS393 DYS438 DYS391 DYS389I DYS390 DYS19 DYS458 DYS456 DYS385a,b N Frequency

H42 12 16 19,20 21 29 11 21 13 10 9 12 22 16 16 17 15.15 1 0.010
H43 12 16 19,20 21 30 11 21 13 10 9 12 22 16 16 17 15.16 1 0.010
H44 13 16 19,20 21 30 11 21 13 10 9 12 22 17 17 17 15.16 1 0.010

These are the samples on Ysearch:
AFERN Anonymous Italian Italy
13 22 16 9 16 17 12 12 12 31 15 16 19 11 17 10 22
3U6J5 Wolpert Kedainiai, Lithuania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 19 19 34 34 11 10 12 12 17 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 24 18 11 12 12 16 8 27 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
639PF Bittner Ansbach, Bavaria/Bayern, Germany
13 22 16 9 15 16 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 17 19 33 33 12 10 12 12 18 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 24 18 11 12 12 16 8 26 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
6M9HE Rodriguez Unknown
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 11 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 16 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 17 18 33 34 10 10 12 12 16 10 10 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 25 18 11 12 12 16 8 26 22 11 11 14 9 12 11 10
7TRE3 Soumaoro Ouelessebougou, Koulikoro, Mali
13 22 16 9 16 16 11 12 13 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 25 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 10 18 21 17 11 10 13 12 12 21 11 13 11 13 17 29 20
A4WSP Saltman Kozloschina, Belarus
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 29 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 33 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 20 19 34 34 11 10
D2RSJ King Unknown
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 10 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 20 19 34 34 11 10
GYDY8 Heisler Romania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 15 17
HEU6N Kaplan Svencionys, Lithuania
13 22 16 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 15 12 20 18 34 34 11 10
HK6SU Alvin Mariampol, Lithuania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 10 18 21 16 12 22 19 34 34 11 10
JXVEC Green Ylakiai, Lithuania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 12 11 24 16 20 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 20 19 34 34 11 10 12 12 16 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 25 18 11 12 12 16 8 27 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
K3HGT Stern L'viv, Ukraine
13 22 15 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 18 10 11 18 21 16 12 21 18 34 34 11 10
KPVRK Fulciniti Catanzaro, Italy
13 22 16 9 17 17 11 12 12 12 12 31 15 9 9 11 11 25 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 10 18 21 17 12 16 20 34 34 11 10 12 12 17 11 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 23 24 19 11 12 12 16 8 27 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
MUPVG Alvin Mariampol, Lithuania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 10 18 21 16 12 22 19 34 34 11 10
N5QEX Alvin Unknown
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 10 18 21 16 12 22 19 34 34 11 10
NKZWQ GurganiousCrixie. essex, buckinghamshire,oxford, Essex, England
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 29 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 19 19 34 34 11 10 12 12 17 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 10 10 24 24 18 11 12 12 15 8 27 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
QFZ3Y Green Ylakiai, Lithuania
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 12 11 24 16 20 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 20 19 34 34 11 10 12 12 16 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 25 18 11 12 12 16 8 27 23 11 11 14 9 12 11 11
R9CQC Kline-Simon Budapest, Hungary
13 22 16 9 15 17 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 20 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 18 21 16 12 21 18 34 34 11 10
REB9Z Calleia Birkirkara, Malta
13 22 17 9 15 16 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 24 16 19 32 15 16 17 17 10 11 18 21 17 12 17 17 35 35 11 10
RJAAJ Barger Unknown
13 22 17 9 16 16 11 12 12 12 12 30 15 9 9 11 11 25 16 19 32 15 15 17 17 10 11 20 21 17 13 18 21 36 37 11 10 12 12 16 10 8 15 15 8 9 10 8 11 11 24 25 20 12 12 12 16 8 27 22 11 11 14 9 12 11 11

Of course all the matter should be investigated again at the deep SNP level. The samples from FTDNA don't report the double value at DYS448 and the samples from Figuig have H4 +9.

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