YFull TMRCA of E-M81


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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:50 pm
Now in the Yfull tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/E/ , E-M81 (mainly in NorthWest Africa) has got a formation dating 13.900 years ago and a TMRCA of 2.200ya only. We will see if the assigned value of thr TMRCA changes with more samples.

In more, This value of 2200ya is assigned to the unique considered sub-group E-Y8827 (I supposed it is the same node of M183 the main and more frequent subgroup of M81) as formation date and TMRCA, it is also the formation date of the 5 branches of E-Y8827.
Now there are 20 samples under M81 of which 19 are also under E-Y8827, the origin is referenced for 1 Tunisian, 1 Algerian, 1 Moroccan, 2 Lybian 3 Mexican, 1 Peruvian, 1 from Iberian Peninsula and 3 from Puerto Rico. This should already show an important diversity of M81, useful to find the oldest possible TMRCA.

In 200 BC the Second Punic War finished in which struggled dozens of thousands soldiers from North Africa in a lot of battles during 15 years: they were Lybians, Numids and Moors and certainly more than half of these man bore the SNP M81. At this time and in the followng following centuries, North Africa had an important population and nothing which shows a bottleneck of population. In more this population was split in hundreds of tribes often isolated in mountain valleys.

2 solutions : there will be a new estimation soon or there is a very great mistake in their datings. But the underestimation seems general in every haplogroups and very strong in recent branches.
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Location: Brazil
YDNA:
J1b M365+ J1a ISOGG
MtDNA:
H1ao1
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:40 pm
Another possibility would be a strong North African E-M81 migration to Iberia during the Islamic-Moor Era.
Y DNA - Barcelos - Minho - Portugal. Colonial Brazil
MtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
Brazilian Portuguese Founding People
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Brasil/
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/

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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:27 am
RCO wrote:Another possibility would be a strong North African E-M81 migration to Iberia during the Islamic-Moor Era.


But what doesn't fit, as palamede says, is that there is an unique ancestor only 2200 years ago, and not calculated through the STRs, which aren't reliable, but through the SNPs, which should be so. When we find an unique ancestor in some Jewish community, we think to a bottleneck (the Jewish scholars) or to an introgression (me), but we know that the ancestors of the Ashkenazi people, for instance, were a few hundreds in the Middle Ages. It doesn't seem that the same happened for all the North Africa and Southern Europe, certainly they weren't a few hundreds. The Roman Empire had also 50 millions people. In other cases we think to a founder effect (Genghis Khan or some Irish king), but we think that the strong reduction of the survived lines happened in prehistoric times and not so recently, thus the hypothesis of palamede that the YFull ages are underestimated should be taken into account, and I have expressed many times the same in the past. The problem is that it is easy to bring the age of the R-M73 survived lines from 2000 to 4000 and lastly 8000 years, because this is an isolated line. To do the same with the all R-L51 subclades (what interests me above all) is more dufficult, but they are getting older this line: now we are at 5100 years for P312 and U106 from the 4700 of a few days ago. For me it will be enough that R-L51 reaches 7500 years, because I am convinced that some R-L51 people were amongst the agriculturalists who migrated from Italy to Iberia by sea 7500 years ago, as your "compatriot" Zilhao demonstrated.
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YDNA:
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MtDNA:
H1ao1
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:11 pm
SNPology is an exact science. Of course you must have the E-M81 BAM files to make the right calculations and the correct estimates.

R1b-M269 is a very young continuum of SNPs moving from the East to the West
You hadn't time neither territory for an Italian refugium because the R1b SNPs were just on the move.

A L51 tree
http://morrisondna.x10.bz/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm
Y DNA - Barcelos - Minho - Portugal. Colonial Brazil
MtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
Brazilian Portuguese Founding People
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m365/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Brasil/
http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:48 pm
RCO wrote:SNPology is an exact science. Of course you must have the E-M81 BAM files to make the right calculations and the correct estimates.

R1b-M269 is a very young continuum of SNPs moving from the East to the West
You hadn't time neither territory for an Italian refugium because the R1b SNPs were just on the move.

A L51 tree
http://morrisondna.x10.bz/L51xL11/SNPTree.htm


Of course you know that I don't agree with you, with all the kurganists, the Anthrogenicians and whom I call the Celtjews. The tree you send me was done after many posts of mine on Anthrogenica, where I began the R1b1 tree with my "R1b phylogeny" and much I wrote about R-L51: there you find my theory that R-L51 expanded from Italy: at Samara they found R-L23 (mine, but I find the closest to me in a Basque and an Englishmen already at least 6100 years ago), and the subclade R-CTS7556 was born in Western Europe and expanded Eastwards like R-CTS9219. Not only: clearly R1b1-L389* and R1a-M420* are amongst the Western European hunter-gatherers, and two R1b1 has been fond in Iberia already 7100 years ago.
If you look at the smal tree, you'll be able to see that an Italian litterate (me) defeated all the xxxx (professionists and amateurs: and you if stay with them) who wrote about that so far:

I cannot send you the file, but you may find it in the "R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project".

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