European E-V257/L19


Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:10 pm
Hello,
My name is Ray-Scott Miller and I am an Admin of the E1b1b1b* group on FTDNA.com. Upon looking at your Haplotype on Ysearch, I believe you would be a good fit for our group. The website is www.ftdna.com/public/peakdistrict
I would like to request that you join our group as we are really beginning to gain some ground on the Italian part of our tree. Please let me know if you are interested. My email address is rsmiller@millerhospitality.net
Thanks
RSM

Dear Miller,
Unfortunately I am not Muzzi (ySearch NZA93), but I found him on SMGF and put him on ySearch. Now I am seeing that SMGF has released also the marker DYS635, and with my surprise I have seen that his value is 21-22, which isn’t tested by FTDNA and we aren’t able to charge on ySearch. I have found on SMGF other people linked to him with this value at DYS635: De St. Jeor (Q8ADF), Anonymous from Panama (NNF99), Christy (ZQKCH), Klenner (SQCEV). It seems that all this European hg. E have this mutation and it would be important to test it.
By the haplotypes it seems that these Europeans are E-V257+, and probably their dispersion in Europe is very ancient, by judging by their locations and their mutations.

Kind Regards, Gioiello Tognoni

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:32 pm
Trombetta et al. wrote in “A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms”, PLoS ONE 6(1), p 2-3:“Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe. An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors, and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups”.

But which way? We aren’t more sure of the “Out of Africa” (see the important studies of Anatole Klyosov), why should we be sure that hg. E was born in Africa?

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:45 am
Interesting also these samples from YHRD:

1 13 13 30 22 9 11 13 12,14 10 12 14,15 22 15 15 21,22 11 >>
1 13 13 30 22 9 11 13 12,16 10 12 14 22 15 15 21,22 11 >>
1 14 13 30 22 9 11 13 12,16 10 12 14 22 15 14 21,22 13 >>
1 of 197 Basque Country, Spain [Spanish] Eurasian - European - Western European Europe
1 of 130 Rabat, Morocco [Arabs] Afro-Asiatic - Semitic Africa
1 of 1041 United States [European American] Eurasian - European North America

Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:19 pm
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:39 pm
Gioiello wrote:why should we be sure that hg. E was born in Africa?

It is less about certainty and more about probability....

Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 7:03 pm
Location: Maryland, USA
YDNA:
E-L649
MtDNA:
L3f1b1a
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:20 pm
Anatole Klyosov is not even real science. Just the avoidance of it.
FTDNA : 200545
V221+ U290+ L651+ L650+ L649+ Z1725- U181-

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:10 pm
brownar wrote:Anatole Klyosov is not even real science. Just the avoidance of it.


From your DNA you are probably an African American and I understand that you don’t like Klyosov and his theories. I have polemicized with him many times in the past, above all on “Dienekes’Anthropology blog”, but now he writes above all on Rootsweb, from where I was banned at the end of 2007, and I don’t exchange letters with him, but I read of course his letters and his papers. Perhaps he has granted some ideas of mine, but I find his theories very interesting, and he isn’t just anyone, he is a great researcher in his field: chemistry.
The idea that Black Africans are due to the mingling of recent men from “out of Africa” (why not Europe besides Asia?) and archaic Africans (Y: A00 and mt: L0 etc.) merits to be studied and anyway science is made by proofs and not by desires or ideology.

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:54 am
Etyopis wrote:
Gioiello wrote:why should we be sure that hg. E was born in Africa?

It is less about certainty and more about probability....


It seems I am in good company now:

"Blogger German Dziebel said...
@Dienekes
"I think the back-migration model "saves the phenomena".
This "back-migration" is the only ancient migration between Africa and Eurasia. There's no evidence for a 100K YBP migration. Genetic variation in Africa that looks more ancient than L3/CDEF was absorbed from local archaics. This scenario fits all the evidence.
"The fact that the capacity for modern human behavior exists fully in all modern humans, including Bushmen and Pygmies with split times as old as maybe 200kya proves, I think, that modern human behavior did not arise as a biological change, but that modern humans already had the capacity (the hardware, so to speak) for the new behavior. So, the 50kya transition was a cultural, not a biological revolution."
So, humans were biological for 150K and cultural for 50K and Eurasians made Africans cultural through a back migration? Bushmen didn't have a language until Eurasians gave them one? This is nonsense. What would make sense is if Bushmen, Pygmies and some other African populations became fully biologically and culturally human back in Eurasia but they admixed biologically with local archaics in Africa. This would be consistent with higher cultural and linguistic diversity outside of Africa" (from Dienekes' Pontikos blog).

Not only German Dziebel but Dienekes Pontikos too, in spite of all the Gails of this world.

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:04 pm
Answering on Eurogenes blog about Sardinian/Italian E-V257
E1b1b1b1 CTS1271/M5064 * CTS6304 * CTS5480/PF2360... 106 SNPs formed 23800 ybp, TMRCA 13900 ybp
E1b1b1b1*
E-PF2431 FGC18913/Y10538 * PF2466 * PF2431... 21 SNPs formed 13900 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp
E-PF2431*
id:HG02317 ACB
E-PF2438 FGC18915/Y10559 * PF2469 * FGC18918/Y10542... 12 SNPs formed 10900 ybp, TMRCA 9200 ybp
E-PF2438*
id:HG01699 IBS
E-Y10539 Y11300 * FGC18923/Y10561 * FGC18922/Y10562... 20 SNPs formed 9200 ybp, TMRCA 6900 ybp
id:HG02798 GWD
id:YF02677
Sardinians are negative for Y10539 and it isn't said that HG02317 ACB is of African origin rather that Iberian one. The Sardinian samples 46, 47 and 48 are upstream M81, which is very young in Africa and I should do other studies to say if Europeans derived from Africans or the other way around. Anyway the samples 46, 47 and 48 are very old in Sardinia and in Iberia. After the separation from the M81 lines the Sardinian samples had 101 SNPs plus 46 (8), 47 (9) and 48 (22) private ones. I. e. the Sardinian line may have been separated from the M81 line also from the 13900 years given from YFull. The Sardinian line belongs in fact to the PF2438 subclade and is linked to the Iberian sample on the YFull tree. Of course these old samples should be compared, what I cannot do because I haven't their data.

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