Haplogroup G from Caucasus of from the Italian Refugium?

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Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:27 pm
Gioiello wrote:Answering to a post of mine on eng.molgen, where I quoted his sample like the most ancient G2* found so far, Greco (Ross) answered:
"Our family believes we are of Greek origin, perhaps originally from the Greek Colonies in Sicily. There was a group of people living in the western edge of Sicily called the Elymians who were left undisturbed by the Romans (and genetically undisturbed?), but I think they were Phoenician colonies. Findings by family tree DNA, Ancestry DNA and the Genographic project all point to our DNA coming from somewhere in the middle east originally (Anatolia/Turkey/Caucasus).
On family tree DNA there are a few individuals who seem to be a genetic match. One in particular, Schiro, was from Sicily and we had the same paternal ancestor approximately 500 years ago".
But the distance between his haplotype and the others is abysmal: at least 67 out 94 markers. This is with a G2c (G-M377/M283) of the Jewish pool
PYM77 Ross (G-PF5721) San Giovanni in Fiore, Italy
11 23 16 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 9 9 11 12 23 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 18 35 35 11 10 12 12 12 20 11 15 11 11 13 31 20 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 10 21 22 17 10 12 12 16 8 20 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 9 15 11 12 11 13 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 21 12
X6UPU Davis Dzialoszyn, Poland
13 23 15 10 13 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 8 9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13 14 15 15 10 11 20 20 17 16 15 16 32 35 12 10 null 12 11 12 22 12 16 13 11 18 31 23 11 8 16 16 8 11 10 8 12 10 21 22 14 10 11 12 14 9 19 21 13 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 9 15 11 11 10 12 11 10 13 11 11 12 21 27 20 12
And also the closest to him, Schirò from Sicily, even though seems close, have many mutations in the first series (8 12 10 8 11 10/8 11 11 8 11 11) that could mean also a separation of thousands of years which should be ascertained by a SNP test:
1 246925 G2-P287>M3115
11 23 16 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 19 9 9 11 12 23 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 18 35 35 11 10 11 8 15 16 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 21 22 17 10 12 12 16 8 11 20 21 13 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 29 15 8 15 12 21 27 21 11 11 13 13 12 9 11 11 10 11 12 31 11 12 20 15 11 10 24 17 20 14 26 16 12 15 26 12 20 18 12 14 18 9 12 11
2 N35198 G2-P287>M3115
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 13 11 31 19 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 17 35 36 11 10 11 8 15 16 8 11 11 8 11 11 12 21 22 17 10 12 12 14 8 11 20 21 14 12 11 13 10 11 11 12 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 12 31 12 13 21 15 11 - - - - - - - - - - - 21 - - - - - 12 -

Of course I may say much:
1) Elymians were probably an Italic people linked to Ligurians.
2) To carry surname Greco (Greek) and Schirò (strong man in Greek) doesn't mean to be of Greek origin (or Albanian, as Schirò is used also from Arbereshet), even though it is a possibility to investigate further, as the surname Mattei doesn't mean a Jewish origin or Guidi a German one.
3) I have many doubt that between the MRCA of Greco and Schirò there are only 500 years.
4) If the origin is elsewhere from Italy we should find some close haplotypes there, that it seems not having happened so far.
5) Of course also my hypothesis of an old origin of G2* in the Mediterranean Islands due to the commerce of obsidian I think merits to be done.
6) Of course about the reliability of FTDNA and National Geographic I have many doubts, and all my activity of these last years is here to demonstrate that.


Elymians are not greek, they resided in the western end of sicily, their origins ( as stated by historians) are the same as tuscan proposed origin in anatolia, south-west corner ( ancient lydia).
Elymians carry a lot of the southern T marker ( L162 and P77 )

The greeks never settled in western Sicily
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 2306
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:30 pm
William Hill g2b is heavy in eastern baltic areas, where our sister mtDNA clade Hap T also has a well known concentration. Hap T erupted out of post LGM Italy from what I read.

Gioiello Tognoni William, the presence of G2b in the Baltic area is due probably the the Jewish cluster G2c, now G-M377/M283, that Ted Kandell is trying to demonstrate of Jewish origin but unfortunately for him they all (are many because Ashkenazi Jews became 10000000 from a few hundreds of people) belong to an unique haplotype, whereas the basal G2b* is overwhelmingly Italian for what I know: see his project at FTDNA and also this sample I found on SMGF and put on Ysearch (Marino) and I am waiting for having access again for completing his haplotype.
About hg. T I think having demonstrated that some haplotypes are in Italy from thousands of years: I don't pretend that all the haplogroup came from Italy. Certainly the haplotype of Stoeni/Vettor, one of those many Italians who prefer to be everything except Italians and who bothers me on eng.molgen (the unique forums where I may write yet) with the Etruscans who came from Anatolia and with the Elymians too, whereas they were probably linked to Ligurians (see Erice and Lerici) like Siculi and Sicani were linked to other Italic peoples. Etruscans of course had nothing to do with Anatolia, except for the Lemnians, who were probably an Etruscan colony, like others later in Egypt, Tunisia etc. during the Roman Empire.
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:07 am
Gioiello wrote:William Hill g2b is heavy in eastern baltic areas, where our sister mtDNA clade Hap T also has a well known concentration. Hap T erupted out of post LGM Italy from what I read.

Gioiello Tognoni William, the presence of G2b in the Baltic area is due probably the the Jewish cluster G2c, now G-M377/M283, that Ted Kandell is trying to demonstrate of Jewish origin but unfortunately for him they all (are many because Ashkenazi Jews became 10000000 from a few hundreds of people) belong to an unique haplotype, whereas the basal G2b* is overwhelmingly Italian for what I know: see his project at FTDNA and also this sample I found on SMGF and put on Ysearch (Marino) and I am waiting for having access again for completing his haplotype.
About hg. T I think having demonstrated that some haplotypes are in Italy from thousands of years: I don't pretend that all the haplogroup came from Italy. Certainly the haplotype of Stoeni/Vettor, one of those many Italians who prefer to be everything except Italians and who bothers me on eng.molgen (the unique forums where I may write yet) with the Etruscans who came from Anatolia and with the Elymians too, whereas they were probably linked to Ligurians (see Erice and Lerici) like Siculi and Sicani were linked to other Italic peoples. Etruscans of course had nothing to do with Anatolia, except for the Lemnians, who were probably an Etruscan colony, like others later in Egypt, Tunisia etc. during the Roman Empire.



You need to stop going against the Italian constituation...............it states clearly, there is no such thing as Italians before March 1861. You should say tuscans, sicilians, ligurians etc.

The term Italian before March 1861 referred to a term similar to the term balkans.

I am Italian now, my ancestors prior to March 1861 where not Italian.
Michelangelo was not Italian, ..but was a Tuscan

Make it clear as per what the Italian govenment state
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 2306
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:10 am
Marino completed. It is interesting to see his distance from Schirò (6 out 43) and from the Jewish subclade G-M383, where also the same values are mostly due to convergent mutations and the separation is of many thousands of years. Anyway if this basal G2b* won't be found in Middle East and will be hugely present in Sardinia (we are waiting that Francalacci et colleagues publish the updated data) nobody will be able to say that the few Italian G-M377 are due to immigrants and not descendants of this original haplogroup of the Italian Refugium and to exclude that from one of these samples were born the same Jewish clade:

7E3ET Marino Resina-Ercolano, Naples, Italy
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 14 11 32 18 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 11 10 12 12 12 20 11 15 11 11 15 31 21
3W5B9 Schiro Sicily
11 23 15 11 14 16 11 12 11 13 11 31 19 9 9 11 12 24 16 20 29 10 10 13 14 11 9 20 20 15 15 16 17 35 36 11 10 12 12 12 13 21 11 15 11 12 14 31 21 11 8 15 16 8 11 11 8 11 11 21 22 17 10 12 12 14 8 20 21 12 11 13 10 11 11 12

YGYTX Kandell Peremyshlyany [Premishlan], Ukraine
13 23 15 10 13 15 11 12 12 14 11 32 18 8 9 11 11 24 16 21 28 13 14 15 15 10 11 20 20 17 15 15 16 34 35 12 10 null 12 11 12 24 11 16 13 11 17 31 23 11 8 16 16 8 11 10 8 12 10 21 22 15 10 11 12 14 9 19 21 13 11 13 10 11 11 12 9 11 15 15 12 21 27 20 12 12
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