Raetian Cluster


Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:29 am
stoeni wrote:here is another paper which will benefit this thread

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0041885


It seems that amongst all the R-U152 this sample could belong to the "Rhaetian cluster", having DYS635=25, if 25 derives from 24:

ETY_035

14 13 29 24 11 13 14 11,13 12 12 15 19 16 17 25 12 R-U152/S28


All these samples have DYS635=24. Difficult to say more without other data.
ETY_030 A A n.a. yes n.a. 15 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 11 15 17 14 18 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_032 A A A yes yes 14 13 30 24 10 13 13 11,14 12 12 16 19 15 17 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_033 A A A yes yes 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 12,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_261 B n.a. n.a. no n.a. 14 13 31 23 11 13 13 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 19 24 12 R-U152/S28
User avatar
Posts: 226
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:51 pm

YDNA:
R1b-U152+L2+
MtDNA:
H4a1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:58 pm
Simonetti (kit no. B3593) is now both FGC10543+ and FGC10536+ as per FTDNA testing. He has ordered FGC10516 from YSEQ as it is not available from FTDNA even though its details were submitted to FTDNA months back with FGC10543 and FGC10536. As expected, Kit no. E8413, Bonfant from Cembra, Trentino has also tested FGC10543+. He shares several markers with Simonetti, and again, I suspect they form their own separate branch below FGC10543 from my own.

Kit no. 207656, Fiera from Capua, Caserta has also tested FGC10543+. He looks much closer to me than either Simonetti or Bonfant. Continuing with the trend of "STR closeness means very little below L2", my closest match in the Italy project (Goglia kit no. 208100) has tested FGC10543 negative. Also, Gosselin (kit no. N113573) from NW France tested FGC10543 negative, even though he shares two of the three "Raetian Cluster" values with Simonetti. I was half expecting this as I suspect the cluster may just be confined to NE Italy, Eastern Switzerland and Western Austria.

Pending FGC10543 tests are kit no. 190854 Joho, from Baden Switzerland and kit no. E11278 Häfliger from Luzern, Switzerland. I'm trying to recruit a couple more people from Italy to test.

Extremely speculative, but I suspect the appearance of these SNPs may have occurred something like this...
U152+ L2+ (Bell Beaker) > FGC10543+ (Polada Culture, Fiave?) > Raetian Cluster (Luco Culture/Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture)
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:44 pm
http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index. ... /4087/3590

as per this paper above ( 2012 ), I also agree with a a proto-celtic migration into into merging with ancient ligures. I do not believe the ligures where proto-celtic before this. The few DYS390=22 is the only paternal father of this group prior to migration
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:12 pm
stoeni wrote:http://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/jbr/article/viewFile/4087/3590

as per this paper above ( 2012 ), I also agree with a a proto-celtic migration into into merging with ancient ligures. I do not believe the ligures where proto-celtic before this. The few DYS390=22 is the only paternal father of this group prior to migration


The paper believes to a migration to Italy from the Urnfields times (1350 BC). Rocca is saying now that this last data make him believe that his hg is in Italy at least from 2500 BC.
Soon everybody will know that I was right in all what I said and wrote, i.e. that all these hgs came from the Italian Refugium long before.
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:25 am
Gioiello wrote:
stoeni wrote:here is another paper which will benefit this thread

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0041885


It seems that amongst all the R-U152 this sample could belong to the "Rhaetian cluster", having DYS635=25, if 25 derives from 24:

ETY_035

14 13 29 24 11 13 14 11,13 12 12 15 19 16 17 25 12 R-U152/S28


All these samples have DYS635=24. Difficult to say more without other data.
ETY_030 A A n.a. yes n.a. 15 13 29 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 11 15 17 14 18 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_032 A A A yes yes 14 13 30 24 10 13 13 11,14 12 12 16 19 15 17 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_033 A A A yes yes 14 13 29 24 11 13 13 12,15 12 12 15 19 15 16 24 12 R-U152/S28
ETY_261 B n.a. n.a. no n.a. 14 13 31 23 11 13 13 11,14 12 11 15 19 15 19 24 12 R-U152/S28


the DYS426=13 is clearly a non mid-east marker for this R1 group. If it was it would be 12. most likely it is north caucasus/central asian
but you will find that DYS426=11 all belong to I, J, H, T, G and L and all came from modern Iran-india area ( west-asian/gedrosia/south-asia) , you will never get a R1 with an 11.
The DYS426=11 in europe is another indication it was the first indo-iranian group in Europe
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:02 am
have you guys gone through all the S28 in this link

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... 81704-g005

spreadsheet (xls) File S1
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:31 am

MtDNA:
U5a1
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:02 pm
Adding to your U152-DF103 is my paternal lineage: Pierre Sirre b.c. 1644 probably in Flanders possibly the Benelux regions. Find his DNA info on the Cyr DNA project of Family Tree.
:
This man migrated to French Canada c. 1668. So far he doesnt have even one identical match at any level beyond 12 markers: of which there are thousands (primarily British Isles: indicating ancestry close enough to make that crossing to Britain) and only has some one off matches at 25 and 37 markers which come back as Belgian.

So we can deduct our fellow does not come from a population that had much if any early migration to North America and that is also consistent with Belgic history. The Flemish alternatively have a huge history of entry to the British Isles. The Flemish also have a small but significant history of migration to Canada in the 17th century.

Although I dont at this moment have this mans genome in front of me to quote, I do know he carries a significant amount of Flemish modal value markers.
France, unless the rules have changed, does not permit DNA testing for recreation: only for science. Thus we have very few pure samples to work with other than North American migration ones: mainly French Canada.

My prediction is as the sample size increases, much more U152 will be found in North Eastern France: from Normandy over to Flanders and into the Benelux regions over to Bavaria and probably travelling backwards to Poland etc.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:24 pm
DF103 is only a sister clade of FGC10543. Of course an origin and an expansion of U152 and of all the R-L51 subclades from the zone close to the North Sea is possible, even though I think having demonstrated that R-V88 and R1b1-L389* till R-L51* are more diffused in Tuscany/Italy than Netherlads.
Previous

Return to R1b-U152/S28

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest