Belgieris' haplotype and CTS9733


Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:57 pm
Belgieri carries these haplotypes like the closest to him:
modal
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 22 15 19 15 24 19 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
154083 Bolgeri 1900 Italy R-L20
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 35-35 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 23 15 19 15 25 19 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 13 11
N9198 Pietro Pio Bolgeri, 1670, Civenna, Lombardy, ITALY Italy R-L20
13 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13 34 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 22 15 20 15 25 19 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
183488 Mario James Belgeri Italy R-L20
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 18 16 35-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 19 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13 34 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 13 13 24 13 10 10 23 15 20 15 25 19 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
315066 Cyr Rene Cyr R-L20
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 19 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 14 9 16 12 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 22 15 21 15 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
147820 Cyr Andre Suire R-L20
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 19 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 31 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
N31442 Antoine Laurans, 1560 France R-L20
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 29 15-15-17-17 10 12 19-23 15 15 17 17 35-37 12 11 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-23 16 10 12 13 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
116207 Claude Philippe de Richebourg, b.c. 1670, France France R-L20
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 14 17 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 11 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
212243 Niels Eriksson, 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden Sweden R-L20
13 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 18 28 15-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 18 18 36-39 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 17 12 12 11 14 10 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 26 26 19 9 12 13 12 10 9 13 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 11 21 15 18 15 24 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 9 14 17 9 12 11
217453 Thomas Pears 1779 - 1837 England R-L144
13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 13 31 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-17-18 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 14 22 19 14 12 11 14 10 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 27 27 19 12 11 12 11 10 10 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 22 15 18 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 11 14 17 9 12 11
211236 Jesse Boling, b. 1758 and d.1841 Scotland R-L20
13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 14 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 36-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 34 15 9 14 12 26 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 13 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 20 15 19 15 24 16 12 15 25 12 23 18 11 14 18 9 12 11
N114697 Benjamin Bolling b. 1734 United States R-L20
13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 14 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 15 16 17 17 36-40 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12 34 15 9 14 12 26 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 13 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 20 15 19 15 24 16 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 18 9 12 11
---------------------------
My analysis.
It seems that they all retain the first series like
8 10 10 8 10 10
and the second like
11 13 11 11 12 12
Only amongst the Belgieris (154083, N9198, 183438) N9198 and 182488 have had the recent mutation in DYS551 from 12 to 13.
The first series has had the mutations:
116207 in DYS537 from 10 to 11
212243 in DYS511 from 10 to 11
217453 in DYS511 from 10 to 9
But for the second series we have two blocks:
212243 and 217453 with 11 14 10 11 12 12
211236 and N114697 with 11 13 10 11 12 12
Probably these two blocks have a same intermediate ancestor. They are Scandinavia/Isles. They had the mutation in DYS572 from 11 to 10 and the other mutations after the separation. We could call this the North-Western block. But about the mutations is worth noting that 211236 and N114697, with pretty the same surname, if the data are reliable, should have a common ancestor at the beginning of the 18th century (about 10 generations) and they have only 1 mutation out of 111 markers: DYS643=11/10, i.e. a Mutation Rate about 4 times slower.
We know that 212243 and 217453 are CTS9733-, i.e. belong to the same subclade of Belgieri, even though, from the SNPs tested by Big Y, probably separated about 5000 years ago.
Is the French block (315066, 147820, N31442, 116207) closer to the Belgieri? It is possible, but, above all, it is necessary to test them for CTS9733, and, after, to answer by the aDNA or other the old question: are Italians from French or French from Italians?

Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:32 pm

YDNA:
L20+
MtDNA:
H5
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:24 pm
Big news in L20+ CTS9733- there is a new subclade..

in U152 Ftdna project

U152> L2> Z258/Z367/Z384> L20/Z383/CTS1939/PF129> CTS9733=C(back mutation)> 7702178 et al.

surname Bolgeri - Drouillard..

Thanks to Richard Rocca U152 Ftdna project.

that discover new SNP subclade

7702178(G/A), 9882218(G/A), 14543554(A/T), 14590597(T/C), 18684555(C/G), 21605188(A/G), 23301577(T/C), 23758887(C/T)

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/FTDNA_U152_Project_Tree.png


N.B.
GD between Drouillard / Bolgeri 25 or 27 or 23 !


131330 Jean Drouillard 1666 Marennes, France France R-L20 25 27 23
154083 Bolgeri 1900 Italy R-L20 25 12 11
N9198 Pietro Pio Bolgeri, 1670, Civenna, Lombardy, ITALY Italy R-L20 27 12 11
183488 Mario James Belgeri Italy R-L20 23 11 11
U152+ L20+ from Lumbardy .. North Italy

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:01 am
Giuseppe, if you Belgieris have on average 25 mutations out of 111 markers and you calculate a MRCA with the usual method
(464 x 25) : 222 = 51 generations
but we know tat this number should be multiplied for at least 2.5 to 3 or more, i.e. the generations would be from 127.5 to 153 etc.
Now you two have a Big Y and you could calculate how many SNPs under these 8 plus CTS9733 separate you and to calculate the age (1 SNP of Big Y is worth from 136 to 150 years) and see it as to that calcuated by the STRs. If the previous R-CTS9733C from Swede hasn't these 8 SNPs in common perhaps the link with Longobards (from Swede) is less reliable ad could be happened the other way around. Of course with more data things will be clear.

Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:32 pm

YDNA:
L20+
MtDNA:
H5
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:55 am
Gioiello wrote:Giuseppe, if you Belgieris have on average 25 mutations out of 111 markers and you calculate a MRCA with the usual method
(464 x 25) : 222 = 51 generations
but we know tat this number should be multiplied for at least 2.5 to 3 or more, i.e. the generations would be from 127.5 to 153 etc.
Now you two have a Big Y and you could calculate how many SNPs under these 8 plus CTS9733 separate you and to calculate the age (1 SNP of Big Y is worth from 136 to 150 years) and see it as to that calcuated by the STRs. If the previous R-CTS9733C from Swede hasn't these 8 SNPs in common perhaps the link with Longobards (from Swede) is less reliable ad could be happened the other way around. Of course with more data things will be clear.


With Big Y were found in me Belgieri, 58 novel SNPs of which 8 accetable quality and 19 best quality .. so 30 were ambiguous quality and 1 low quality.

Of the 19 + 8 = 27 SNPs of good or acceptable quality I .. Belgieri and Mr. Drouillard (French Canadian) we have in common 8 (5 of best quality and 3 accetable quality). ù

so the time that separates us from the MRCA between Belgieri and Drouillard is 19 x 125 years = 2375 ... about..

With 111 STR instead the average distance between Bolgeri and Drouillard is GD 20 and generations is 42 ( double that Bolgeri), when it was GD 11 and generations 20 among the various branches of the Bolgeri.

IF we assume that the common origin of the Bolgeri family.. is at least after year 1000 .. more or less coincides?! .. a common origin between Bolgeri and Drouillard ..
at the time of the Gallic invasion in Gaul Cisalpina 2500 years ago? .
or at the time of the colonization of Gaul by Roman legionnaires 2000 years ago?

I think the argument over the Lombard origin is falling ..
Easier to think that in a poor mountain valley near Como (which is the origin of my family) .. have fled the inhabitants of the plains .. when arrived the Lombards in North Italy?!?
U152+ L20+ from Lumbardy .. North Italy

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:33 pm
[quote="Bolgeris]
With Big Y were found in me Belgieri, 58 novel SNPs of which 8 accetable quality and 19 best quality .. so 30 were ambiguous quality and 1 low quality.
[/quote]

If this is true, that from Big Y you had 8 SNPs of acceptable quality, 19 of best quality and 30 "ambiguous", I'd say that Big Y is another swindle of FTDNA, beyond its wrong trees, its numerous wrong SNPs (but I let you know that they failed the samples which could demonstrate my theory of the "Italian Refugium": R-L389*, R-V88* etc.).
Anyway between you and Drouilliard these 8 SNPs in common come all from the most reliable SNPs, but I'd want that reliable researchers like Semargl did exam these two samples, and above all that the test were Y Elite or the Full Genome I am doing, and Warwick wrote that he believes it will be the best of the SNPs of the Y.
After we would be able to say something more reliable and do theories about the origin of hg. R-U152, but, from what I am seeing (and let's wait that Marco's result and all the other tested by Francalacci and Tofanelli will be released), it seems to me that all brings to Sardinia, thus Italy, and, having you also a Sardinian descent, that shouldn't dislike you.

Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:32 pm

YDNA:
L20+
MtDNA:
H5
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:54 pm
:D
You are always nice, I remind you that I only have my paternal grandmother Sardinian but.. all other grandparents ranging between Liguria, Veneto and Piedmont.
But the origin of the Bolgeri surname is from Lombardy.

Sure no problem if U152 resulting from Corsica or Sardinia.

However, I think that now that the subclades are specifying more clearly and confirming that, at least for those of us L2+, possibility ..?.. Gauls or Celts of origin.

Sure Everything remains to be proven.

Even more French Canadian L20+ and 20 GD has climbed to the Swiss French as the family ancestry.. ..

So a Rhaetian / Helvetian origin (L20+ CTS9733-...) is not impossible .. like you said for many years.
U152+ L20+ from Lumbardy .. North Italy

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:09 am
Gioiello wrote:Anyway between you and Drouilliard these 8 SNPs in common come all from the most reliable SNPs, but I'd want that reliable researchers like Semargl did exam these two samples, and above all that the test were Y Elite or the Full Genome I am doing, and Warwick wrote that he believes it will be the best of the SNPs of the Y.


Wheaton Kelly writes on Facebook:

Our second Full Genomes Corporation Y Elite returned results yesterday. BRAVO Justin and Greg. And a special thanks to Rich Rocca and Hal Eaton fellow L2's. The time from order to results delivery was 6.5 months. The number of NEW downstream shared SNPS of L2 is 2. The number of private SNPS 42 at the highest confidence and 4 Private Indels. One of the new downstream shared SNPS is not tested by Big Y. I could not be more pleased.

Thus 48 reliable SNPs. And the others? Are we sure that they are useless? And how is worth an Y Elite SNP? And why did you count at the lowest level each SNP (125 years, whereas others think at least 136 and Michal uses 150 for his R1a SNPs?)
We'll see next my Full Genome, because we have a clear set in the smal's tree and I already found 13 private SNPs from BDNA (some of them recurrent and unreliable).

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:07 am
An update of the results on Anthrogenica:
"For those keeping track. Our WHEATON R-L2* just returned from FGC Prime:
2 New Shared SNPS downstream of L2
33 Highest Quality Private SNPS
11 Good Quality SNPS Private SNPs
1 Highest Quality Private Indels
3 Good Quality Private Indels".
But was it Y Elite or Y Prime? Thus as Y Prime covers about 90% of Y Elite, the SNPs are more and are worth more.

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