About R-U152-Z193


Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:05 pm
If this is the last YFull tree of R-U152/Z193, Sardinia from the last paper of Francalacci 2015 has 87 samples: 12 (from 1069 to 1080) are Z193*, and 75 are Z192 and subclades. The samples are highly differentiated, with the first Z192 with 72 mutations from the closest line which has other tens of mutations etc. etc. PF6658/Z193 seems perfectly detectable in all the samples tested.
R-PF6658 Z193 * PF6658 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp
R-PF6658*
id:YF02713
id:YF02736
R-Z192 PF6660/Z192
R-Z192*
R-CTS10676 CTS3866 * S8163 * CTS11020... 23 SNPs
id:NA19661 MXL
id:NA19685 MXL
R-PF6652 PF6652 * CTS11874
id:NA20755 TSI
id:NA20754 TSI
The two Tuscans of the 1KGP separated from the Sardinians samples after the SNP PF6652 and the Mexican samples separated from the Tuscan and Sardinian samples after Z192. Thus we have three subclades of Z192 separated within about 3 generations the first and other three generations the others. Have we to think that the expansion happened from the Iberian Bell Beakers? But against the 23 SNPs of the Mexicans we have 9+23 (not 26 as Francalacci says)+72 SNPs before the few singletons of the samples 1081-1082. 104 SNPs of the Francalacci test on 23.1Mbp are worth at least as the FGC, i.e. very likely not less than 78 years. Perhaps something is wrong in the YFull dates.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 2:09 pm
Gioiello wrote:........
But against the 23 SNPs of the Mexicans we have 9+23 (not 26 as Francalacci says)+72 SNPs before the few singletons of the samples 1081-1082. 104 SNPs of the Francalacci test on 23.1Mbp are worth at least as the FGC, i.e. very likely not less than 78 years. Perhaps something is wrong in the YFull dates.


Yes, you are right about the 104 mutations from Z192 including , and therefore 105 mutations below U152 for 1081-1082 (The maximum 109 below U152 for 1081), but less for other samples under Z193. I don't think the repartition of mutations is gaussian and there is leaps in the number of mutations according to the samples; either there is a problem in the survey of a part of SNPs or the mutations are not aleatory completely (therefore non gaussian repartition) and proceeds by bunch in the time.

Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:56 pm
palamede wrote:Yes, you are right about the 104 mutations from Z192 including , and therefore 105 mutations below U152 for 1081-1082 (The maximum 109 below U152 for 1081), but less for other samples under Z193. I don't think the repartition of mutations is gaussian and there is leaps in the number of mutations according to the samples; either there is a problem in the survey of a part of SNPs or the mutations are not aleatory completely (therefore non gaussian repartition) and proceeds by bunch in the time.


Palamede, I ask you if are mutations reliable and if is it possible to base something about them. The Francalacci's samples 1135 and 1136 have had two mutations in common after their separation from 1134. After 1135 has had 1 private mutation and 1136 has had 312 ones in the same time span.

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