One million Brits 'descended from Romans'

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YDNA:
R1b-U152+L2+
MtDNA:
H4a1
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:49 pm
For such a complicated topic, it seems an oversimplification to consider British U152 as "Roman". For example:

L2(xL20) can be as old as Bell Beakers and may have expanded as part of the following Bell Beaker Groups:
- Rhone-Rhine Beakers
- Begleitkeramik Bell Beakers
- Northern Italian/Tuscan Bell Beakers

So, any L2(xL20) individual may have traveled into SE Britain during the Copper Age or Bronze Age, or any time after.

The U152+L20+ subclade probably expanded during Urnfield, specifically with the Rhin-Suisse-France Orientale (RSFO) Culture. This could very well have made it's way into SE England. It would also have been present in migrations by LaTene and Belgae.

Z36 (xZ54) could have expanded with any of the above groups as well. Z56 has a more southern distribution, and so those who are Z56+ might be due to Roman colonization. However Z56 is not very common in Britain even amongst those who are U152+.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:56 pm
Makes sense Richard. I really wouldn't expect the Romans to have had a huge genetic impact on Britain.

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YDNA:
R1b-U152-Z36
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:34 pm
There were "cohortes lingonum" as part of Roman auxiliary troops in Britain .... Celtic Lingones partly settled in the Po valley .... May be they introduced some U152 to Britain as well .... I think "real" Romans were a minority in the Roman Empire .....
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:53 pm
CelticGerman wrote:There were "cohortes lingonum" as part of Roman auxiliary troops in Britain .... Celtic Lingones partly settled in the Po valley .... May be they introduced some U152 to Britain as well .... I think "real" Romans were a minority in the Roman Empire .....


That Romans, be they former Celts, Italics or otherwise, could certainly have left a genetic legacy in Britain. My caution is that it is almost impossible to tell who's lineage went to Britain as part of Roman occupation. Who's to say that a Roman of Cisalpine Gaul wasn't L21 and wound up in Britain as a Legionnaire? The possibilities are endless.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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YDNA:
R1b-U152-Z36
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:26 pm
Richard,
I agree. The best thing would be to have all possibilities in mind. May be one day we will have additional findings allowing to reduce the number of such possibilities.

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YDNA:
L20+
MtDNA:
H5
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:05 pm
OK..
Surely the origin of U152 + is older ..
Sure the origin of the British U152+ may be should be oldest of the period of the Roman conquest.

But I think that the hypothesis that part of British people U152+ are descended from Roman legionaries or settlers .. is plausible.

In northern Italy U152+ is more widespread in areas of the northwest (of colonization gauls) that in the northeast who were Venets.

If the legions in Britain were Cisalpine Gauls may well have left their genetic traces in the South England.

These remains are only genetic residual after the Anglo-Saxon invasion, but may very well be derived U152+ : Cisalpine Gauls ..!
U152+ L20+ from Lumbardy .. North Italy

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Location: England
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:09 pm
Richard Rocca wrote:
CelticGerman wrote:There were "cohortes lingonum" as part of Roman auxiliary troops in Britain .... Celtic Lingones partly settled in the Po valley .... May be they introduced some U152 to Britain as well .... I think "real" Romans were a minority in the Roman Empire .....


That Romans, be they former Celts, Italics or otherwise, could certainly have left a genetic legacy in Britain. My caution is that it is almost impossible to tell who's lineage went to Britain as part of Roman occupation. Who's to say that a Roman of Cisalpine Gaul wasn't L21 and wound up in Britain as a Legionnaire? The possibilities are endless.


I think that's the main point. I don't doubt that for every one U152 lineage that was Roman, there are two that are more likely Belgic, Gaulish, or a minor lineage among some Brythonic peoples.

Personally i think it is something that may suggest the genetic make-up in south-eastern Britain has been much more continental than further inland for quite some time. The south-east looks somewhat similar to the Celtic-Germanic border zones on the continent, as R1b-U152 and U106 are both in appreciable amounts, and R1b-L21 is much more minor than in the western areas of Britain. It's almost like a continuation of this border zone but in Britain instead (and of course with more L21).
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YDNA:
R1b-U152+L2+
MtDNA:
H4a1
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:19 pm
As disappointed as I was with Alistair Moffat's last book (Scots: A Genetic Journey), I pre-ordered the book that should represent the U152 data (The British: A Genetic Journey). It is supposed to ship April 1st.
Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ (Z49- Z367-), Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
Mother's Paternal: J1c3d-YSC234/Z2329+ (YSC80-), Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:47 pm
I completely agree with the critiques on this ( not that I am in position to do so), but, as my autosomal dna all seems to center on Naples, I think I will pick up the flag of the Vi Legion and run with it. ( for the present).
I am not sure what to make of the NatGeno British and Romanian bit though.
Oh well...
Vici, Vidi, Veni ( to paraphrase a BBC comedy, Chelmsford 123) seems rather fitting now.
U-152+ PF4363+
4jdg5, mtdna v,
PF4363 match to Hap I in Sardinia
Clarkson ,Kipling, Parker

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:17 pm
In case it's of interest I attended the talk at WDYTYA in which Alistair Moffat was supposed to be presenting the figures behind the claims that one million Brits are descended from the Romans. You can read my write-up here:

http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/wh ... day-3.html
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