L193?


Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:30 am
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:17 pm
Hi,

I had my DNA tested with GeneBase and came back as L21+. Genebase are now recommending I test for L193. Does anyone know what a positive result for L193 would indicate, given that I'm already confirmed as "pure blood" Celt? Is the L193 test going to tell me anything I don't already know?

Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:02 am

YDNA:
R-DF41
MtDNA:
U4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:17 pm
As I mentioned on Eupedia L193 is a subclade of L513. I don't know much about it, though from what I see it's seems to be mostly among men with "Scottish borders" surnames. Now I will admit my knowledge of Scottish history is somewhat lacking, though I would think this could imply Brythonic origin given that Lowland Scotland was Brythonic speaking in parts up until the 12th century (kingdom of Strathclyde). Either way ye male line probably been in Scotland a very long time.
Y Chromosome Haplogroup: R1b-L21/DF41+
Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroup: U4*
Autosomal DNA admixture (K12): 42.5% North European, 38% Atlantic-Mediterranean, 11.5% Gedrosia, 6.8% Caucasus, 0.9% South Asia, 0.2% Southeast Asian

Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:32 pm
DavidCoutts wrote:Hi,

I had my DNA tested with GeneBase and came back as L21+. Genebase are now recommending I test for L193. Does anyone know what a positive result for L193 would indicate, given that I'm already confirmed as "pure blood" Celt? Is the L193 test going to tell me anything I don't already know?

Are you 406s1>=11 617>=13 and 640>=12. If so, odds are very high you are L193+, although there are some who fit this who are L513+ L193-. I would recommend testing for this if you appear to fit.

As was posted by Dub, L193 is a descendant of L513 so if you are L193+ you are L513+ by default. L513 is another name for DF1. We have a forum for L513 people over here. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1113Combo/ Please join the discussion group. In the Files section are two reports on Clade/Variety A-1. A-1 was the name we gave the haplotype signature I just described. At the time this variety/cluster was identified, L193 had not yet been discovered.

There is not a clear cut picture of the ethnic origin of these people they seem, from TMRCA calculations and MDKA locations, to have expanded from the Scottish Borders region. Many of the surnames are connected to Scottish Border Reivers clans. Some of the people in these groups argue these people are Celtic, some say Anglo-Scot and some say Norman. The large family names vary from Elliott, Vance/Vans/Vaux, Sinclair/Sinkler/St Clair, Little/Lytle, Clendenin/Glendinning to McLean/McClain.

Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:30 am
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:15 pm
Thank you both for replying.

Mike, I've no idea if I fit the parameters you mentioned. I only have 20 Markers from Genebase, so I be unable to check everything you listed.

My family name is not from the Borders, though I suppose anything is possible...
User avatar
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 am

YDNA:
R-L21+, L226+
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:13 am
I suggest that you order the FTDNA 67 marker Y-STR test next. Once you have 67 markers, you can use my R-L21 SNP predictor and determine the odds of testing positive for L193 or 50 other L21 SNPs:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R-L21_SNP_Predictor_Intro.html

Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:30 am
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:47 pm
Robert, that's definately on my To Do List. I was originally intending to go for 23andMe's test, but after looking at both companies, FTDNA seems a better idea. The only problem is financial; I won't be able to afford the test until much later this year.
User avatar
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:51 pm

YDNA:
R-L21>DF13**
MtDNA:
H11a2a
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:00 pm
DavidCoutts wrote:Hi,

I had my DNA tested with GeneBase and came back as L21+. Genebase are now recommending I test for L193. Does anyone know what a positive result for L193 would indicate, given that I'm already confirmed as "pure blood" Celt? Is the L193 test going to tell me anything I don't already know?

For the price I would go with Genebase's L193 recommendaton.
148326 DF13** Celtic, Goidelic 111 Marker: GD1/67 & GD3/111 Watterson USA, Cook(UK/Scot Heritage) with a GD5/111, Codere(Watterson(McWalter))IOM GD8/111 and Ross Scotland GD13/111. Cluster 13*-1130-A1: 20 off-modals from L21.
Sorted slow to fast: 531=>12, 497=15, 511=11, 19=>15, 385a=12, 441=14, 552=25, 447=24, 513=11, 557=<15, 446=14, 464d=18, 456=18, 534=16, 449=31, 576=17, 710=36 and 712=>21 68-111Panel
DF13>FGC5496.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3j ... sp=sharing
User avatar
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 am

YDNA:
R-L21+, L226+
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm
MJost wrote:
DavidCoutts wrote:Hi,

I had my DNA tested with GeneBase and came back as L21+. Genebase are now recommending I test for L193. Does anyone know what a positive result for L193 would indicate, given that I'm already confirmed as "pure blood" Celt? Is the L193 test going to tell me anything I don't already know?

For the price I would go with Genebase's L193 recommendaton.


With only 20 Y-STRs from Genebase, they have no way to accurately predict L193 would be a good SNP to test. Also, the L21+ came from 23andme - a different company.

Here are the L21 Off Modal Mutations for L193: markers 1 to 37: 607 >= 16 (1 mutation) and markers 38 to 67: 406S1 >= 11, 534 <= 14, 617 >= 13, 572 >= 12 and 640 >= 12 (5 mutations). If his 20 Genebase Y-STRs match over half of these, it would be worth a try. Obviously, 37 marker test would miss five of the six markers in the L193 fingerprint. Their recommendation is probably based on a very old version of the haplotree vs. any SNP prediction technology. I would ask the testing company the basis for their recommendation before randomly ordering an SNP.

Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:30 am
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:44 pm
Robert, the L21+ result did come from GeneBase; I haven't tested with 23andMe.

I have tested with the now-defunct EthnoAncestry, who classified me as, "Pretani".
User avatar
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:38 am

YDNA:
R-L21+, L226+
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:27 pm
DavidCoutts wrote:Robert, the L21+ result did come from GeneBase; I haven't tested with 23andMe.

I have tested with the now-defunct EthnoAncestry, who classified me as, "Pretani".


I would ask Genebase why they recommend L193. There are currently around 60 SNPs that descend for L21. With very few Y-STRs to predict L193, I bet they are just providing one descendant of L21 to test without any prediction technology. Here are the L21 SNPs available from FTDNA:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21_Descendant_Chart_Intro.html

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