L1335+: R1b-L21>DF13>L1335 - Scots? & WalesII?


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R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:10 pm
L1335 does NOT look to be the Scots Modal subclade. It looks to be larger than that so I am starting a new thread on its entirety. All we know for sure is that it falls under DF13 and that L743 is an apparent subclade (maybe a private one.) It's fast approaching qualification for the ISOGG tree. I expect it to make for a seventh large and/or old subclade of DF13 with DF49, DF41, DF21, Z253, Z255, L513 being the other six.



Here are the L1335+ confirmed people so far. Of course the most interesting is the last guy. 19706 Price does not fit the Scots STR signature. Other than 391=10, he's quite a bit different with what's known as the Wales II/Cadwgon signature.

Code: Select all
f16273____ Anderson_______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ England, East Midlands, Lincolnshire, Toynton St. Peter
f113433___ Campbell_______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Highland, Inverness-shire, Inverness
f110529___ Eunson_________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Orkney Islands, Kirkwall
f36006____ Gregory________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ England
f84796____ Hosie__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Strathclyde, Renfrewshire
f57711____ McDonald_______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Laggan
f169588___ McKay__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Highland, Sutherland, Durness
fN36830___ Moore__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc______________ England
f108937___ Neilson________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Glasgow
fN63882___ Patterson______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Ireland, Ulster
f14346____ Tagert_________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc______________
fN44383___ Tate___________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *-___________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Ireland, Ulster
f66126____ Taylor_________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ England
f171740___ Watkins________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc______________ Scotland
f165340___ Herbert________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *-___________________________ 1335-Sc-22___________
f14555____ MackMillion____ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc-22___________ Scotland
f48641____ MacMillan______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L1334+_______________________ 1335-Sc-22___________ Scotland
f85335____ McCurdy________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc-22___________ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyll and Bute, Isle of Bute
f120820___ MacFarland_____ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc-2410_________ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Ardstraw
f147012___ Young__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *-___________________________ 1335-Sc-2413_________ Scotland
f107327___ Iles___________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *-___________________________ 1335-Sc-2415_________ England, East Midlands, Nottinghamshire, Sturton-Le-Steeple
f12816____ McDonald ______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc-2415_________ Scotland
f65511____ Patterson______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335______________________________ 1335-Sc-2415_________
f167070___ Gunn___________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc-2424_________ Scotland, Highland, Inverness-shire
f123690___ Binns__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-Sc-2437_________ Scotland
f197944___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f198922___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f227382___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f197943___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f12041____ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f34090____ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f166440___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f197448___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f197929___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f63127____ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f9548_____ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f198923___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f182451___ Templeton______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________ Scotland
f38312____ zzzUnknown_____ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L743+________________________ 1335-Sc-743__________
f19706____ Price__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales
Last edited by Mikewww on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:28 pm
Mikewww wrote:... Of course the most interesting is the last guy. 19706 Price does not fit the Scots STR signature. Other than 391=10, he's quite a bit different with what's known as the Wales II/Cadwgon signature.


The below list is a group of suspects that fit the W2 signature of 1335-W2: 448<=18 391<=10 456<=15 464=15,16,17,17 - MacDougall is a little iffy.
We need these guys to test for L1335 to validate Price's L1335+.

Code: Select all
f19706____ Price__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *____________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales
f74305____ MacDougall_____ zzL21suspect_________________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Scotland
f1059_____ Miles__________ R1b-P312>L21_________________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales, Mid, Powys, Radnorshire, Llanfanhangel Helygen
f165160___ Price__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13____________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales
f228773___ Price__________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13____________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales
f155023___ Price__________ zzL21suspect_________________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales, Mid, Powys, Radnorshire, Llanfanhangel, Helygen
f14006____ Priest_________ zzL21suspect_________________________________________ 1335-W2______________ Wales
f246983___ Priest_________ R1b-P312>L21_________________________________________ 1335-W2______________

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:46 pm
What about L1334, that's found downstream of L1335? How widespread is it?

The lone L1334+ is MacMillan, the WTY participant, within whom both L1335 and L1334 were found.

The "*-" is the equivalent of a double asterisk. In this case it would mean L1335+ L1334- L743-. Herbert is, like MacMillan, a YCAII=19,22 variant of Scots modal. There has been a thought perhaps L1334+ was pervasive across YCAII=19,22 people. At this point I wouldn't say that but I think we have to the exploratory testing going.
Code: Select all
f165340___ Herbert________ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 *-___________________________ 1335-Sc-22___________
f48641____ MacMillan______ R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L1334+_______________________ 1335-Sc-22___________ Scotland


Herbert shows a GD of 16 at 67 from MacMillan so we shouldn't necessarily think 1334-Sc-22 is a young subclade or even just one subclade. There could easily be coincidental convergence to 19,22. The suspect MackMillan's should definitely test L1334.
Code: Select all
f30173   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f49777   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f104889   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f60826   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f104887   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f44132   MackMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f14555   MackMillion   R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335   1335-Sc-22
f221629   MacMillan   zzL21suspect   1335-Sc-22
f104203   MacMillan   R1b-P312>L21   1335-Sc-22
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:23 pm
Interesting that there's a MacDougall, kit 74305, in the 1810-W2 cluster that has now, with Price, kit 19706, tested L1335+. MacDougall traces his mdka to Scotland.

So, you have the big Scots Cluster that is L1335+, and a group with some Prices (and one variation, Priest) and a Miles (kit 1059) who identify Wales as their ancestral home but which also has at least one Scot (MacDougall) in it.

MacDougall - and L1335 - make me wonder how Welsh that cluster will remain. I'm not saying it isn't really Welsh; it's just the weight of L1335 is tilting toward Scotland, and even in the 1810-W2 cluster you have, so far, at least one Scot, which rouses the old police-trained habit of suspicion in me . . . hmmmm . . .

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:42 am
rms2 wrote:Interesting that there's a MacDougall, kit 74305, in the 1810-W2 cluster that has now, with Price, kit 19706, tested L1335+. MacDougall traces his mdka to Scotland.

So, you have the big Scots Cluster that is L1335+, and a group with some Prices (and one variation, Priest) and a Miles (kit 1059) who identify Wales as their ancestral home but which also has at least one Scot (MacDougall) in it.

MacDougall - and L1335 - make me wonder how Welsh that cluster will remain. I'm not saying it isn't really Welsh; it's just the weight of L1335 is tilting toward Scotland, and even in the 1810-W2 cluster you have, so far, at least one Scot, which rouses the old police-trained habit of suspicion in me . . . hmmmm . . .


Copied this over from the other thread

--
McDugall as a name itself points towards Gall-Ghaeil (Norse-Gael). In Irish it's Mac Dubhghaill -- the son of Dubhghaill (literally "Black Foreigner") the word usually used to refer to specifically the danish vikings. Of course it appears that it became a first name over time (and survives as such as Dugal to this day). Other surnames related to the "base name" include Doyle, McDowell, McDouall etc.

Of course to remember that the Irish sea was very much the domain of the GallGhaeil during the period 900-1100. After all the Kingdom of Dublin at times also ruled the Kingdom of York (Northern England) and of course the Kingdom of the Isles & Man.

-Paul
(DF41+)
--
Y Chromosome Haplogroup: R1b-L21/DF41+
Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroup: U4*
Autosomal DNA admixture (K12): 42.5% North European, 38% Atlantic-Mediterranean, 11.5% Gedrosia, 6.8% Caucasus, 0.9% South Asia, 0.2% Southeast Asian

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:48 pm
Robert Hughes is the person, as far as I know, that identified the Wales II/Cadwgon cluster. He posted this on Roots web on Dec 22nd.
Robert Hughes wrote:Great Scots of Scandinavia --- and Wales !

Several emerging SNP’s from the Geno 2.0 test results have possibly revealed some interesting details about the genetic legacy of the UK and the peopling of northern Scotland, northern England and now mid Wales.

SNP R-L1335 is linked to a clade that I called “The Great Scots of Scandinavia” in my R-17-14-10 Project. This clade’s signature is found
in Norway, Sweden, and Germany, in Ireland and in Scotland down through north England. Now my Modal 2 Cadwgon of Wales clade is also linked to SNP L1335. I failed to link the two generally because I was still thinking “inside the box” of one general location only per Y-DNA modal. Think the Ui Neill.

Actually, L1335 now seems to be a fairly large group and the researchers say it may have several branching downstream snp’s.
Having R-L1335 Scandinavian dna in the middle of Wales (Radnorshire) and in Marcher territory may mean that the Cadwgon
Elystan Glodrydd hired Norse mercenaries to fight for him. Of course, the Marcher lords could have had the same idea.
An interesting clue is in one of the Welsh L1335 clade surname of Miles. It can mean a soldier or warrior.

Another interesting possible religious connection is between the L1335 Welsh surnames of Price, Priest and Preston and the Scots L1335
surname of Templeton in Scotland.

SNP’s like R-L1335 with its Norse connection and R-L144 with its possible Irish Viking connection to the Viking movement from Dublin to the Wirral in 902 AD are becoming like little archeological “shards” of dna to aid both the historian and the geneticist as they add to the history of the Atlantic Isles.

There is still a lot of testing going on to find the genetic range of L1335 so my theory may yet dissolve into a richer, even more robust
phylotree of Norse emigration.

Debbie Kennett and others are going to have to start a new chapter for their books soon. And hopefully, she can describe how the various disciplines combined their discoveries and added to our shared
history.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 1356202826

I think he thinks the Scots modal is Scandinavian. Why else would he call them the "Great Scots of Scandinavia?" I'm not following along on the logic on this. Anyone else?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:35 pm
I saw that and was tempted to post a comment on Rootsweb but didn't figure it was worth it.

He does seem to think that at least some of the L21 in the Isles is of Scandinavian origin. I tend to think that the other way around is more likely, although I realize anything is possible and that there were Beaker Folk in SW Norway who could have been, at least in part, L21+.

When it comes to L1335 in Scandinavia, however, I am pretty well convinced it's of comparatively recent Scots origin.

I'm not even sure how he is linking 1810-W2 to Cadwgn.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:34 am
Agreed, however I could see him using my families descent in Northern Scotland (Orkney) as fuel for his fire. I dont think its impossible, but it seems unlikely.
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Eunson
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:04 pm
Our L144+ guy, Braswell, kit 33102, is L1335-, so that takes care of that.

Irvine, kit 22874, who is L555+, also got an L1335- result.

Does that take care of all that remained to be done to get L1335 on ISOGG's tree?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:09 pm
David Reynolds thinks L1335 is ready for ISOGG approval right under DF13. I saw his submission to ISOGG. I don't think he'd mind me copying his note since it is all general information and a good summary.
David Reynolds wrote:Results returned today should complete the ISOGG requirements to add
L1335 to the tree under DF13 and change the "Big Six" to the "Big
Seven." :)


Diversity Requirement
---------------------
Kit 19706 (Price) ranges from GD=30/111 to 40/111 to other L1335+
testees, far exceeding ISOGG's requirement of 15% diversity (GD=17 @
Y111).

Test R-L1335
(Prove R-L1335 is not located under existing subclades)
-------------------------------------------------------
Kit 107327 (Iles) is:
L21+ DF13+ L1335+ DF21- DF41- DF49- L144- L371- L513- L555- L96- Z253- Z255-


Test existing subclades of DF13
(Prove existing subclades are not located under R-L1335)
--------------------------------------------------------
R-L371 -- kit 181160 (Thomas), L1335-
R-L96 -- kit 176268 (Drake), L1335-
R-L144 -- kit 33102 (Braswell), L1335-
R-L555 -- kit 22874 (Irvine), L1335-
R-DF21 -- kit 120616 (J Moore, WTY), L1335-
R-DF41 -- kit 29705 (McCown), L1335-
R-DF49 -- kit 91704 (Kelly, WTY), L1335-
R-L513 -- kit 117944 (Wilson, WTY), L1335-
R-Z253 -- kit 6879 (Mangum, WTY), L1335-
R-Z255 -- kit 33100 (Doty), L1335


The separation from Wales II to the Scots modals is large, proving L1335 to be old. I don't think it is the oldest subclade of DF13. My guess is DF49 or Z253 will win that honor.

I haven't done it for a while but I tried to do interclades for the large subclades of DF13 and I included the Irish II/South and Scots modal people. If I remember right, the oldest interclade was between DF49 and the Scots folks.
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