DF13+: R1b-L21>DF13 ... the Big Kahuna, and its subclades


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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:05 am
DF13 is the lion's share of L21. It's the Big Kahuna. On its own, it may be older than U106.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L ... y_Tree.jpg

I've just started calling L1335 the new and seventh member of DF13's Big Seven subclades. The addition of a Wales II variety guy to L1335 sealed it for me. I've been questioned about L1335 about why I thought it was old as the Scots Modal isn't necessarily that old.

This is a simplistic view of the Big Seven, but one way to look for diversity (age) is the greatest GD to the modal, not greatest GD of any two in the group but to the modal. That gives us a decent chance to understand relative aging.

The GD at 67 from the L1335 modal to its most distant member, f19706 Price 1335-W2, is 22.

For Z253, the max GD is 26.

For DF21, the max is 24.

For DF41, the max is 22.

For L513, the max is 24.

For Z255, the max is 22.

For DF49, the max is 30.

We are still very early in testing, but L1335 has already tied DF41 and Z255.

Look at DF49! I still think DF49 is vastly under tested among DF13+ people. DF13's max to its modal is only 27, which is the same as L21's.

We should bear in mind the caveat that DF49's modal is swayed by the distinctive M222 signature.
Last edited by Mikewww on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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R-DF41
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U5a2c3a
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:49 pm
Nice chart. One picture is worth a thousand words, as they say.
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Location: Sault Ste Marie, Northern Ontario, Canada
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L21-L513*
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H1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:47 am
mike
when you were a kid, did you would ever have so many men tell you one day that they loved your tree?

in any case, I do!

M
Furthest Y line=Patrick Whealen 1816-1874, Tipperary Co. Ire. to Kincardine On

Y-DNA-RL21, R-513* (still looking for the 'lost Irish 'C' boys')

FTDNA=P312+ P25+ M343+ M269+ M207+ M173+ L513+ U198- U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- P107- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L705- L577- L193- L159.2- L1333-
23&me=L21+
E.A.= S21-, S26-, S28-, S29-, S68-

Co Administrator of the Whalen/Phelan DNA Surname Project
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/whalen

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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:07 pm
We may have to quickly shift to the Big Eight with the possibility that CTS4466+ CTS5714+ may be pay dirt for a large group of DF13* people.

Mikewww wrote:DF13 is the lion's share of L21. It's the Big Kahuna. On its own, it may be older than U106.


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendency_Tree.jpg
Last edited by Mikewww on Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:41 pm

YDNA:
L21+ Z253+ Z2185+
MtDNA:
J2b1a
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:02 pm
Mikewww wrote:This is a simplistic view of the Big Seven, but one way to look for diversity (age) is the greatest GD to the modal, not greatest GD of any two in the group but to the modal. That gives us a decent chance to understand relative aging.

The GD at 67 from the L1335 modal to its most distant member, f19706 Price 1335-W2, is 22.

For Z253, the max GD is 26.

For DF21, the max is 24.

For DF41, the max is 22.

For L513, the max is 24.

For Z255, the max is 22.

For DF49, the max is 30.


I thought I'd look at this technique of GD to the modal for some of the Z253 subclades.

The maximum GD to the modal is as follows:

L1066 max GD is 17 (n=32).

Z2185 max GD is 21 (n=36, including L1066+).

Z2185xL1066 max GD is 19 (n=4).


So Z2185 is looking nearly as old as some of the sons of DF13.

The L1066 result is not biased by Irish Type IV, as only six of them have tested for L1066.

Now look at Z2534, which is upstream of Z2185 but downstream of Z253. Z2534 includes Irish Type III (L226+) as well as Irish Type IV, and there are 134 entries in Mike's spreadsheet which are L226+. Including these and all others who are confirmed positive for Z2534 or one of its downstream SNPs, we have a maximum GD of 24 (n=175).

So the maximum GD to the modal is 26 for Z253, 24 for Z2534, 21 for Z2185 and 17 for L1066. It all fits together quite neatly.

Greg

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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:49 pm
hoxgi wrote:...
So the maximum GD to the modal is 26 for Z253, 24 for Z2534, 21 for Z2185 and 17 for L1066. It all fits together quite neatly.


GD's are a crude tool, but who can say that STR variance does not accumulate with time?.. sorry, I'm off track. This is a point for the General Discussion category.

Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:06 pm
With the advent of L1335 and CTS4466, it looks like DF13* is shrinking in size. Those two SNPs probably take Wales II, Scots Modal and Irish II/South people out of the R1b-L21>DF13* designation.

I'm starting to use this for the single asterisk so this is effectively the Big Eight.
L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L1335- CTS4466-

Here is the distribution of tested DF13* people as I have it:
Belarus (1)
Denmark (1)
England (10)
France (1)
Germany (3)
Ireland (4)
Scotland (4)
Wales (1)

This is not any kind of geographically representative survey as it is probably biased by US immigration and FTDNA testing consumer biases.

My only comments are that this is a pretty widespread group and that for R1b-L21 types of people and the biases in our data, the numbers from Ireland and Scotland seem exceptionally low.

Note: Double asterisk still will require checking the others like L555, L371 and L96, etc.

Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:37 pm

YDNA:
R1b-L21>L705.2
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:02 pm
Mikewww wrote:With the advent of L1335 and CTS4466, it looks like DF13* is shrinking in size. Those two SNPs probably take Wales II, Scots Modal and Irish II/South people out of the R1b-L21>DF13* designation.

I'm starting to use this for the single asterisk so this is effectively the Big Eight.
L513- DF21- DF49- Z253- Z255- DF41- L1335- CTS4466-...
Note: Double asterisk still will require checking the others like L555, L371 and L96, etc.


DF13* is expected to continue shrinking now that Z251 is available for Advanced Orders ala carte. Here is the updated descendancy tree for L21.
Image

I continue to maintain that subclades like DF13, L2 (in U152), Z381 (in U106) and Z196 (in DF27) are only not more famous because of accident of discovery sequence. They are big and they are old and not too distant relatives from the patriarch of European L11.

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