J2a3/4* (J-L26*): new SNPs to test: L250.2, L251.2, L1064

Any discussions about this haplogroup

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:27 pm
In the predicted L250.2+ subclades I know now of 4 L927, 2 L250.2, 1 L251.2 and 2 L1064 pending results. A good result but we need more ;-)

pending lab results UPDATE 5 July:
  • L927: 1 M319, 2 L1064, 1 cluster I, 1 J2a3*
  • L250.2: 1 L1064, 1 cluster I
  • L1064: 1 L1064, 1 cluster I
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

YDNA:
J2
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:17 pm
In regards to my g-grandfather Avila/kit 218631...I was asked to agree to have snp test L250 done. It came back negative. As did another snp I agreed to have tested months ago. Can I ask why our kit was thought to be a possible link to this? I am not a DNA wiz so thought I would secure an answer from you all.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:02 am
azorean2 wrote:In regards to my g-grandfather Avila/kit 218631...I was asked to agree to have snp test L250 done. It came back negative. As did another snp I agreed to have tested months ago. Can I ask why our kit was thought to be a possible link to this? I am not a DNA wiz so thought I would secure an answer from you all.

You can see an actual likelihood overview of the SNP branches sub of J-L26 (FTDNA J2a4) here.
Your kit or cluster is not in the tree, but the STR-Marker profile of your kit and of other kits in your cluster (M68- L1064?) look very similar to kits (now) tested positive for SNP L198 and L1064 (downstream of L250.2).
The prediction of SNP status is very difficult, so we just must try to get enough people to test new SNPs to see how widespread the SNPs are. We need also negative results to see the borders of the new haplogroup.
Look for example how many SNPs I have tested negative: L198-, L207.1-, L24-, L25-, L267-, L558-, L88.2-, M102-, M12-, M137-, M158-, M163-, M166-, M205-, M267-, M280-, M289-, M318-, M319-, M322-, M339-, M340-, M365.2-, M367-, M368-, M369-, M390-, M419-, M47-, M62-, M67-, M68-, M92-, M99-, P279-, P329.2-, P81-
And to testify that sometimes negative SNP testing is good for a kit owner: L250.2 was only discovered because in my and other kits L207.1 or L229 was tested negative. L250.2 SNP on the Y-chromosome is near to the previous two SNPs and by this the mutation was found.
One should interpret the SNP testing as a partnership: sometimes you are positive and sometimes others. And the information is valuable only when both negative and positive results are available.
Our goal and your advantage of new SNP discovery? Many like you are stuck at a SNP older then 10,000 years (J2a4, L26). This gives not much information and the STR-Marker-clustering with kits more then 600 years away is sometimes wrong (STR mutation is not constant, only SNPs are proof of a unique haplogroup).
I was lucky to get 3 new SNPs (L927, L250.2, L1064) in the last months. When the haplogroup tree will be updated I will then be something like J2a3a5a. This haplogroup is probably not older then 5,000 years. Others where able to discover haplogroups not older then 2,000 years. If we continue this way in 2 or 3 years we will have haplogroups in genealogical times (under 800 years) and then you can really find near and distant paternal related people by having the exact paternal pedigree tree with good time estimates. But obviously we need people who do test and pay for it. Thank you for helping us!
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

YDNA:
J2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:17 am
So then would a deep clade test be more productive or several snp's at a time. I am limited on funds so would want to go about helping in the least expensive way.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:05 am
azorean2 wrote:So then would a deep clade test be more productive or several snp's at a time. I am limited on funds so would want to go about helping in the least expensive way.

It is difficult to say what brings more value. If you begin with a new kit I probably will suggest to begin with 37 markers (like you), see if you will be clustered well and then upgrade to 67 markers (for better clustering) or order singular SNPs.
If you want the cheapest way and are willing to wait some weeks, I suggest you wait until we have result of the pending L927 SNP in your cluster. If positive you can order L927.
If you want to see the FTDNA haplogroup in your kit description you have to do Deep Clade, but that AFAIK does not include new SNPs like L927.
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki

Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

YDNA:
J2
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:49 am
Will do what I can to help. Would it be possible to advise when that is completed?
then I will see if I can order the snp test.

Also is the Y predictor available here most current?
Thanks...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:46 am
ChrisR wrote:If you want the cheapest way and are willing to wait some weeks, I suggest you wait until we have result of the pending L927 SNP in your cluster. If positive you can order L927.

azorean2 wrote:Will do what I can to help. Would it be possible to advise when that is completed?

Sorry, I've confused your cluster to another. There is no pending L927 SNP test in your cluster. But maybe all L26+ kits tested L24- M67- are lucky: yesterday Bonnie found several new SNPs in a new 1K Genomes sample (highly sequenced Y-chromosome dataset freely available). We have to check that and the status of L927 in Cluster C. Then I can maybe come back with a suggestion to you.
I don't know details about Vadim Urasin's YPredictor linked here, but by the STR limits he can on principle only predict basal haplogroups (like J2a3, J-L26) or very common branches (strong modal haplotype) like L25+ or M92+. This means if you have kits like yours with few near matches and no kit nearby has tested a SNP not tested by or predicted for you, you will not receive new information.

Here you can see the structure of the actual draft tree by FTDNA lab researcher Dr. Thomas Krahn (we directly cooperate with him for discovery and placement of the SNPs, many positions are usually unsure and must be tested to get the exact position).
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=D ... t=89159733

This is the actual ISOGG nomenclature with the corresponding SNPs

• J2 M172/Page28, L228/S321
• • J2a M410, L152, L212, L559
• • • J2a3 DYS413≤18, L26/Page55/S57, L27/S396
• • • • J2a3* -

You can find your kit and cluster in the J-Project Y-DNA Results Classic (currently at page 3, search for your kit number with Ctrl + F):
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-D ... n=yresults

You have two matches in your cluster:
N74818 Lambrechts Belgium J2a4 (only 12 markers, unsure)
123673 Unknown Origin J2a
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:32 am
As the shape of the new subclade is almost clear I propose to discontinue this thread to not confuse new visitors.
The new thread is here: Subclade L250.2, L251.2 (includes L1064 and M68)

@azorean2 - newest update: I suggest you to wait until one of the new SNPs (Z2224-Z2235) is available and clusters like J-L26* (J2a3*) A1 or J-L250.2 have tested for it. If they are positive I highly recommend to do the test. Please follow in the thread J-L26 J2a1/J2a3/J2a4 subclades SNP discoveries news info

Current status of SNP testing by ytree
L250.2 Details
count_derived: 6
count_tested: 475

L251.2 Details
count_derived: 5
count_tested: 481

L1064 Details
count_derived: 6
count_tested: 522

M68 Details
count_derived: 3
count_tested: 680
DNA/Admixture Central Europe (Alps, Tyrol, Dolomites, Raetia); Y-DNA J2a-L1064, J2a-L210, R1a-M17, R1b-U106 (L48-); mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects : J2-M172, J2a-PF5197, Alpine DNA, ISOGG Wiki
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