I-P109* in Italy


Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:44 am
E17198 Francino da Fazzano,1400 ca. Fivizzano, Massa Italy I-P109
13 23 14 10 13-14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8-9 8 11 22 16 20 28 12-14-15-16 10 10 19-21 14 14 18 20 36-39 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 9 8 9 10 12 23-25 15 10 12 12 17 9 12 25 20 13 13 11 12 11 11 12 11 30 12 8 17 12 23 28 19 11 11 12 13 11 9 11 11 10 12 13 31 11 13 21 16 11 10 24 15 19 11 24 17 13 15 26 12 21 18 11 13 16 9 12 11
E16395 Angelo Carlo Crippa, b.~1855 and d.~1930 Italy I-P109
13 23 14 10 14-14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8-9 8 11 23 16 20 28 12-13-15-16 10 10 19-21 13 14 17 21 34-35 13 10 10 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 9 10 12 23-25 15 10 12 12 17 8 13 25 20 12 14 11 12 11 11 12 11 30 12 8 17 12 25 27 19 11 12 12 13 11 9 11 11 10 12 13 31 12 13 21 16 11 10 29 15 20 11 24 17 13 15 26 12 21 18 12 14 19 9 12 11
N58362 Pasquale Fascia (1798-?), Sesto Campano, Italy Italy I-P109
13 23 14 11 14-14 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 8-9 8 11 23 16 20 29 12-14-15-16 10 10 19-20 14 14 17 20 38-38 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 9 10 12 23-24 15 10 12 12 16 8 13 25 19 13 13 11 12 11 11 12 11
E7006 Grimoaldo Italy I-P109
13 24 14 10 14-14 11 14 13 12 11 28 15 8-9 8 11 23 16 21 30 12-14-14-16 10 10 19-21 14 14 17 21 36-38 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-25 15 10 12 12 16 8 13 25 20 14 13 11 12 11 11 12 11
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E16395 Angelo Carlo Crippa, b.~1855 and d.~1930 I1b1 I-M72
CTS10058+, CTS10140+, CTS10338+, CTS10834+, CTS11036+, CTS11042+, CTS11441+, CTS11468+, CTS11526+, CTS11552+, CTS11775+, CTS11783+, CTS11950+, CTS1393+, CTS2134+, CTS2193+, CTS2375+, CTS2514+, CTS2524+, CTS2644+, CTS2738+, CTS3517+, CTS3654+, CTS3843+, CTS4130+, CTS4295+, CTS4437+, CTS4848+, CTS4982+, CTS5167+, CTS5408+, CTS5513+, CTS5577+, CTS565+, CTS5650+, CTS5705+, CTS571+, CTS5783+, CTS5884+, CTS5891+, CTS5908+, CTS5993+, CTS6140+, CTS6221+, CTS623+, CTS6265+, CTS6395+, CTS641+, CTS6629+, CTS674+, CTS6932+, CTS7267+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7831+, CTS7949+, CTS8333+, CTS8345+, CTS8394+, CTS8420+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8716+, CTS88+, CTS8876+, CTS9240+, CTS9264+, CTS9288+, F1209+, F3692+, F719+, L104+, L118+, L121+, L123+, L124+, L125+, L132+, L15+, L157+, L16+, L22+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L509+, L574+, L575+, L578+, L740+, L748+, L750+, L751+, L755+, L756+, L758+, L759+, L772+, L80+, L81+, M168+, M170+, M213+, M235+, M253+, M258+, M294+, M299+, M307+, M42+, M450+, M89+, M94+, P108+, P109+, P123+, P124+, P125+, P126+, P127+, P129+, P130+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P212+, P30+, P305+, P316+, P38+, P40+, P9+, P97+, PAGES00026+, PAGES00081+, PAGES00123+, PF2591+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF3562+, PF3574+, PF3639+, PF3640+, PF3641+, PF3660+, PF3666+, PF3672+, PF3675+, PF3677+, PF3780+, PF3800+, PF3804+, PF3809+, PF3811+, PF3814+, PF3815+, PF3822+, PF3836+, PF3837+, PK1+, SRY10831+, V221+, V241+, V250+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000256+, YSC0000259+, YSC0000272+, YSC0000281+, YSC0000301+, P109+, F1583-
-------------------------------------------------------
I-L22S142/L22
I-L22*
I-Y3549 Y3549 * Z2338/CTS11651
I-Y3549*
I-P109 P109 * S25633
I-P109*
id:YF01673 GBR
chi è P109 non appartiene alle successive subclades
I-L1438S19489/L1438 * S23062 * S23679 * Y5612 * Y5613... 12 SNPs
id:YF01921
id:YF01618 FRA
I-S10891S10891
I-S10891*
id:YF01624 SCT
I-S10200S10200 * S22534
id:YF01540 NOR
id:YF01974 NOR
I-Y3662S11056 * S7660 * Y3662
I-Y3662*
I-S14887

I-Y3664M10423/PF1334 * M9741 * Y3664
id:YF01636 DNK
id:YF01623 GGY
id:YF01586 FRA
................................
Quindi Francini è I-P109*. Per ora su YFull c'è un Inglese, ma tutti gli altri presunti Normanni o Germanici appartengono a subclades. Siccome Crippa si è testato con Geno 2.0, è con lui che si deve paragonare.
La distanza fra lui e Crippa è abissale. Ora è anche possibile che provengano da due differenti famiglie di Longobardi, divergenti da P109*, cioè molte migliaia di anni fa, ma bisogna trovare qualcuno vicino a loro separatamente altrove, altrimenti la possibilità che I-P109* sia in Italia da molte migliaia di anni non può essere scartata.
Forse a Francini ho detto che fra lui e Grimaldi c'erano molte migliaia di anni, ma questi ci sono anche con Crippa.
E' quindi chiaro che gli I-P109* sono separati dalla nascita.

Thus Francini is a P-109*. So far on YFull ther is an Englishman, but all the other presumed Normans or Germans belong to subclades. As Crippa has been tested with Geno 2.0, he should be compared above all with him.
The distance between him and Crippa is abismal. Now it is possiblke that they come from two different Longobard families, diverging from P109*, i.e. many thousands of years ago, but we should find someone close separately to them elsewhere, otherwise the possibility that I-P109* is in Italy from many thousands of years ago couldn't be excluded.
Perhaps I said to Francini that between him and Grimaldi there were many thousands of years, but they are with Crippa too.
Thus it is clear that the I-P109* are separated from the birth.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:47 am
QVP55 Francini Fazzano/Monte dei Bianchi (Fivizzano, Massa Carrara, Italia), Italy
13 23 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 22 16 20 28 12 14 15 16 10 10 19 21 14 14 18 20 36 39 12 10 12 12 13 13 21 11 16 12 11 13 31 21 11 8 15 15 8 11 9 8 9 10 23 25 15 10 12 12 17 9 25 20 13 11 12 11 11 12 11 9 11 12 9 17 11 11 11 12 11 10 13 11 12 11 23 28 19 12
NEWS4 Graham Fall River MA, USA
13 23 14 10 14 14 11 14 12 12 11 28 14 8 9 8 11 23 16 20 28 12 14 15 16 10 10 19 21 14 14 18 20 35 37 12 10 12 12 13 13 21 11 15 14 11 13 32 21 11 8 15 15 8 11 10 8 9 10 23 25 15 10 12 12 17 8 25 19 13 11 12 11 11 12 11 9 11 12 9 17 11 11 11 12 12 10 13 11 11 12 24 27 19 12
NPPNJ Djukic / Djukić / Đukić Belgrade, Serbia
13 23 14 10 13 15 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 22 16 20 28 12 14 15 15 10 11 19 21 14 14 17 22 34 38 12 10 12 12 12 13 22 11 16 13 11 13 31 21 11 8 15 15 8 11 10 8 9 10 23 25 15 10 12 12 16 8 25 20 13 11 12 11 11 12 11 9 11 12 9 17 11 11 11 12 12 10 13 11 12 12 24 27 19 12 12
SYG6E arrigo Unknown
13 23 14 10 14 14 11 14 12 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 23 16 20 28 12 14 15 16 10 10 19 21 14 14 17 20 35 37 12 10 12 12 13 13 21 11 16 13 11 13 31 21 11 8 15 15 8 11 10 8 9 10 23 25 15 10 12 14 17 8 26 19 13 11 12 11 11 12 11 9 11 12 9 17 11 11 11 12 12 10 13 11 12 11 23 27 19 12

The fact that the closest to him on Ysearch at 95 markers are an Italian, a Serb and an Englishman isn't probably in favor of a Longobard origin of Francini. But to compare someone by his STRs is wrong in principle, because we search in this way the closest haplotypes through the STRs values, whereas we should compare who belongs to the same SNP, and, as P109* is a very far SNP, we should test them for Big Y, Y Prime or Full Genome and after to compare their hapltypes at the STRs level who belongs to the same final SNP.

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