U5a1*


Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:41 am
We have recently gotten 3 new members in the U5 project who are U5a1* (I'm going to keep using the "star" because I don't seen an easy shorthand way to explain this). One has ancestry in Germany, the other 2 are colonial American with apparent European ancestry. This is in addition to 3 GenBank entries, GU296570 (Czech), AY882399 (Italy) and FJ348174 (Hutterite-Tyrol?). U5a1 is found from Europe to India, so it's interesting to see new U5a1* results to see where they point to for the origins of U5a1.

Posts: 985
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:26 am
I haven't studied this case and now I am at my school, but if there is a sample from Italy and another from the Irene Pichler's paper on Hutterites, to think that they come from the Italian Refugium is very likely. I found my father H41a like many samples that Miss Pichler tested in Central-East Europe not finding them. I said that if she had searched in Tuscany, probably she would have found them.

Posts: 985
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- S12460 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:55 am
On SMGF the presence of Central Europeans is overwhelming. Only 3 Italians out of 130 people.

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:38 pm
Gioiello wrote:On SMGF the presence of Central Europeans is overwhelming. Only 3 Italians out of 130 people.


In the U5 project we also have large numbers of central and eastern Europeans in U5a1 -- given that there might be a bias in more people of western/central European ancestry who test, I think the large number of eastern Europe/Russian U5a1 might point to a eastern Mediterranien or perhaps a Ukraine refuge during the ice age. It would be helpful to have ancient U5a1 tests results from that period.

Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: England
YDNA:
I1*
MtDNA:
U5a1b4
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:59 pm
I am not U5a1*, but U5a1b (perhaps U5a1b4) but i find it interesting that U5a1 seems to be more heavily concentrated in central and eastern Europe, especially as U5 has been found in very high frequencies in the remains of hunter-gatherers in Europe - perhaps links in with what David of Eurogenes has been leaning towards - that parts of eastern Europe and around the Baltic retain more of these hunter-gatherer genes than other parts. I would think it also points to a refuge in south-eastern Europe as-well, Gail. This is interesting i guess when you consider y-DNA I has a massive peak around Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as around the Baltic (albeit in a more western position).
I would suppose that U5a1 expanded out to central-eastern Europe from a refuge in south-eastern Europe after the lgm, it makes logical sense. Gravettian springs to mind, and also:
'Therefore, a post-LGM re-expansion of populations from refugial zones between the Pyrenees, the Balkans and the Ukraine, commencing at ~15 kya, may explain the pattern observed.':
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi ... ne.0010285

Interesting Stuff!
I'll have to test with FTDNA soon and join the project too.

Kind Regards,
Sam Jackson

Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:25 pm
Location: England
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:30 pm
I will admit to being a tad confused and irritated with regard to my MtDNA designation. 23andMe claim that I am U5a2b, yet Bryan Sykes at Oxford, Peter Forster at Cambridge and RootsforReal and Martin Richards at Leeds [all top-drawer population geneticists] say I am U5a1. Richards said my particular U5a1 signature is 'quite rare' ands mainly found in Sweden according to his records. I really don't understand 23andMe's insistence on U5a2b. Is the latter even a properly-recognised, scientific clade?

Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:31 pm
Location: England
YDNA:
I1*
MtDNA:
U5a1b4
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:02 pm
Yorkie wrote:I will admit to being a tad confused and irritated with regard to my MtDNA designation. 23andMe claim that I am U5a2b, yet Bryan Sykes at Oxford, Peter Forster at Cambridge and RootsforReal and Martin Richards at Leeds [all top-drawer population geneticists] say I am U5a1. Richards said my particular U5a1 signature is 'quite rare' ands mainly found in Sweden according to his records. I really don't understand 23andMe's insistence on U5a2b. Is the latter even a properly-recognised, scientific clade?


If it were me i would trust in the word of Sykes, Forster and Richards - But keeping an open mind. I would guess if you get three academics telling you that you are U5a1, and specifying a particular group as well, as opposed to a large company driven as much by profit as research into both medicine and genaeological genetics, then i would trust in the word of the academics. Have you tested at FTDNA?

Well whatever the outcome, i'll welcome you as another U5a1 anyway Yorkie! :)

Kind Regards,
Sam Jackson

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:09 pm
Yorkie - you are U5a2b3 according to the latest version of Phylotree. You would need the FGS test to be absolutely certain, but the HVR1 and HVR2 results are fairly specific for this group, so I'd say it is 99% certain. You are definitely not U5a1, so just ignore anyone who says this, they are not familiar with recent updates to Phylotree.

U5a2b3 has been found in mostly in England and Scotland, but also in Finland Germany, Italy and Czech. Most people in this group have 3 or more extra mutations, so this is an old group likely to be found throughout Europe, and there is definitely value in upgrading to the FGS to see if you match more closely with any subgroups in U5a2b3.

On the U5 project pages this is still called U5a2b* Group 4. I have not yet had time to change all the group names to be consistent with the recent updates to Phylotree but will do this over the next few weeks.

Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:25 pm
Location: England
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:38 pm
Jackson wrote:
Yorkie wrote:I will admit to being a tad confused and irritated with regard to my MtDNA designation. 23andMe claim that I am U5a2b, yet Bryan Sykes at Oxford, Peter Forster at Cambridge and RootsforReal and Martin Richards at Leeds [all top-drawer population geneticists] say I am U5a1. Richards said my particular U5a1 signature is 'quite rare' ands mainly found in Sweden according to his records. I really don't understand 23andMe's insistence on U5a2b. Is the latter even a properly-recognised, scientific clade?


If it were me i would trust in the word of Sykes, Forster and Richards - But keeping an open mind. I would guess if you get three academics telling you that you are U5a1, and specifying a particular group as well, as opposed to a large company driven as much by profit as research into both medicine and genaeological genetics, then i would trust in the word of the academics. Have you tested at FTDNA?

Well whatever the outcome, i'll welcome you as another U5a1 anyway Yorkie! :)

Kind Regards,
Sam Jackson



Sam,
I didn't test with FTDNA, but rather with Oxford Ancestors [Sykes], RootsforReal [Forster] and asked Martin Richards for his input too. To reiterate, they all said U5a1 but to be fair this was a while ago.

Thanks for the welcome, at least you and I are both U5. Actually, judging by our very similar autosomal dna, I am probably your long-lost Uncle! :lol:

Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:25 pm
Location: England
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:52 pm
GailT wrote:Yorkie - you are U5a2b3 according to the latest version of Phylotree. You would need the FGS test to be absolutely certain, but the HVR1 and HVR2 results are fairly specific for this group, so I'd say it is 99% certain. You are definitely not U5a1, so just ignore anyone who says this, they are not familiar with recent updates to Phylotree.

U5a2b3 has been found in mostly in England and Scotland, but also in Finland Germany, Italy and Czech. Most people in this group have 3 or more extra mutations, so this is an old group likely to be found throughout Europe, and there is definitely value in upgrading to the FGS to see if you match more closely with any subgroups in U5a2b3.

On the U5 project pages this is still called U5a2b* Group 4. I have not yet had time to change all the group names to be consistent with the recent updates to Phylotree but will do this over the next few weeks.


Gail,
Blimey! So, according to the very latest analysis, I'm U5a2b3...Well, the England, Scotland and Germany hotspots don't surprise me. My deepest-known maternal ancestry is East Anglian English. The only complete match I've ever got on all 3 regions of MtDNA is with an American guy called Craig, whose ancestor [Charity Cook] was an English-descended Connecticutt Congregationalist.

I can't prove this, and my knowledge of MtDNA is far inferior to yours, but I suspect that in the English samples this is an echo of Anglian/Danish ancestry rather than Celtic. I recall Martin Richards saying that my signature was found mainly in Sweden, in his records. He regarded it as essentially Scandinavian-leaning. The eastern side of England owes much to the Angles and Danes. That seems the greater likelihood to me, at any rate. I wonder if the Scottish samples are predominantly from the lowlands? If so, then that might bolster U5a2b3's Germanic credentials as a possible echo of the Angles? This speculation centres just on the English/Scots dominance you refer to. I realise that Italy and Czechoslovakia muddy the water somewhat...

Thanks for your info, Gail. Regards and respect to you. ;)
Next

Return to U5a

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest