About HV4 again


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:57 am
What happens if six illustrious scholars put themselves together? That they could also make a sixfold flop.
(Genetic Continuity in the Franco-Cantabrian Region: New Clues from Autochthonous Mitogenomes, Alberto Gómez-Carballa et al.).

On 14 May 2011 (thread: The case of Euphratic) I wrote on http://www.worldfamilies.net:

“Rich, I think that Gamkrelidze and pretty all the others are thinking that this theory is a proof in favour of their theories, i.e. an origin of IE in that region of Asia, South of Caucasus. I, of course, think that it isn’t expected, not only because I have theorized from many years the origin of some haplogroups found there from Western Europe and specifically Italy: R1b1b2 is controversial but by chance I demonstrated just on this forum, replying to Humanist, that mt HV4, thought of Middle Eastern origin, is clearly European (I said Italian, or Russian the other possibility)”.

Now this paper, not only denies any origin of HV4 in Middle East, but says that its origin is in “Russia”, and this was one of the possibilities I took in consideration. But but…

1) the paper seems conceived and directed by the two Hispanics and probably had the purpose to demonstrate the theory of the Franco-Cantabrian Refugium. This doesn’t dislike to Achilli, who was one of the theorists of it. Interesting the participation of Doron Behar, who has recently participated to the paper which thought having demonstrated the Middle Eastern origin of mt H. But probably he has been used in the paper for recruiting the FTDNA’s mt-s.
And which will be the proof of the Franco-Cantabrian Refugium as regards hg. HV4? That there are many HV4a1a, with an age of 5,4kya. What have to do this with the Franco-Cantabrian Refugium of at least 10ky before?
It is true what says Malyarchuk et al. (a researcher I esteem very much and who demonstrated the peopling of East Europe by many mt hgs from South Europe after the LGM):

“Despite the low coalescence time estimates obtained for N9a3a (~1.3–2.3 kya) it is quite probable that its founder had been introduced into eastern Europe much earlier taking into account the age of a whole N9a3 estimated as 8–13 kya and the discovery of a N9a haplotypes in a Neolithic skeletons from several sites, located in Hungary and belonged to the Körös Culture and Alföld Linear Pottery Culture, which appeared in eastern Hungary in the early 8th millennium B.P.” (page 7) (Miroslava Derenko, Boris Malyarchuk, Galina Denisova, Maria Perkova, Urszula Rogalla, Tomasz Grzybowski, Elza Khusnutdinova, Irina Dambueva, Ilia Zakharov, Complete Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Eastern Eurasian Haplogroups Rarely Found in Populations of Northern Asia and Eastern Europe).

But this should be worth always, also for R1b1a2, which could be also young (I don’t think so), but its ancestor could have come to Western Europe many thousands of years before.
2) What to say about Italy? It has all the most ancient subclades:
a) HV4 (14.2kya)
b) HV4a (13.5kya)
c) HV4a2 (9.3kya), and it is of course the usual prejudice that what is in Italy has come always from elsewhere)
d) HV4a1 (10.4kya)
e) HV4a1a4a, always understood like a migration from Iberia, but it isn’t said.

Have these illustrious scholars demonstrated false my theory of the Italian Refugium? I think just not at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 am
The case 44 of the paper is of unknown origin, but he has the mutations

14518 11944 11389 5978 3645 146

and he matches closely our Nealthered, whose mother comes from Centrella (Avellino).
Nealthered lacks the mutation 3645. Then probably 44 is from Italy and considering how Greeks (case 42) come frequently from Italy, due to the Venetian colonization, I think we can say that the centre of the haplogroup, i.e. HV4a with its subclades HV4a1 and HV4a2, is overwhelmingly Italian.
The time of the expansion is just that of the Younger Dryas, as I have always said.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:44 pm
This has written Gail Tonnesen on “Dienekes’ Anthropology blog”:
“I didn't look closely at the HV4* results, I only looked at HV4a. Taking a closer look at HV4*:
There are two new results in GenBank that were not included in the paper, and Phylotree has also been updated, probably after the paper was submitted.
AY738941 and JQ272477 are HV4c and both have ancestry in Italy.
HM852851 and EF222234 are HV4b, HM852851 is Turkic from Schoenberg, and EF222234 is from a Malyarchuck study of Slavs, although they don't specify the ethnicity of this sample.
That leaves 2 that are HV4*, EF417833 from FTDNA with unknown ancestry, and EU545447 from Malyarchuck with Russian ancestry. Given the small sample size, it could indicate ancestry in eastern or southern Europe, or it might simply reflect over sampling bias from those regions. Given the split in HV4a1 in southern Europe and HV4a2 in the Middle East, I still think an origin in the Near East seem more likely, but obviously we will need a much large sample size to say anything with confidence. To say that these results prove an eastern European origin is over reaching”.

Of course my conclusions are completely different:

HV4a is overwhelmingly Italian
HV4c is totally Italian:

then the origin is in Italy.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:12 pm
The theory of an Eastern origin (from South Russia) of this haplogroup to Middle East is denied also by the last Phylotree update, which has created an HV4a2 (mutations 7805 and 16129) present in Italy (JN214429) and Egypt, and an HV4a2a (mutations 16221!, 16287, 16311), that of the Assyrians. Then the diffusion didn’t happen from East to Egypt to Italy, but the other way around: from Italy to Egypt to Assyrians.
Also what the paper says about the HV4a1a4a present in South Italy is absurd, both for the age (0,4kya with the mutations 6230, 12034A and 16355 from the node of HV4a1a4, plus the mutation 16311 of the case 34) and by the fact that the link of this subclade is with French and not with Spaniards.
Since beyond the six authors named above there is also Prof David Caramelli of Florence University like the editor, I can say that the flop isn’t sixfold but sevenfold one.

Posts: 2406
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:36 pm
What from SMGF?

HV4: 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 16168T (Jenny Marino, 1896, Glover St.Bronx, New York, USA: Italian descent)

HV4a: 263G 309.1C 315.1C 16221T (one person from Kyrgyzstan)

HV4a1 (like the two Italians of the paper): 146C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 16221T 16519C (Ristau from Poland, of German descent)

HV4a2*: 263G 315.1C 16129A 16221T (Adele Elena Cesaro, Milan , Italy)

HV4a2: 093G 262G 309.1C 315.1C 16129A 16221T (Catherine Caruso, 1882, Palermo, Italy)

HV4a2a: 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 16129A 16287T 16311C (many persons from Iraq, Iran, Russia)

HV4a1a: 263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C 16221T 16291T (many persons of British descent, the ancestors of the Spanish ones and not the other way around)

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MtDNA:
H13a1c
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:03 pm
Hi all,

I got my father's full mtDNA sequence this morning (27.11.2012). It came out that the haplogroup is HV4.

HVR1: matches the Cambridge Reference Sequence (CRS)
HVR2: 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C
Coding Region: 750G, 1438G, 2706G, 4769G, 7028T, 7094C, 8860G, 9355G, 15326G

My father's mother' mother is born in Pazardjik, Bulgaria, and as far as I know there are no marriages to foreigners several generations back.

My grandmother had a sister, so the HV4 is passed down in another female line as well. I do not know how this translates in estimation of population % of HV4

A very small part of the Bulgarians have done a full mtDNA sequence, due to the high prices of the test, so it is not clear what percentage of the Bulgarians have HV4.

I myself am H13a1.

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