FGS Services

User avatar
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:26 am
Location: Austin, TX
YDNA:
I1 DF29-
MtDNA:
H1am1
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:42 pm
I'm with AJRLLegits. Way too many questions, way too few answers, and way to hard to get the answers, to plain, simple questions, like, "Who are these people?"

I too need to know who and what these people are, and what is their background, before I order from them, or urge other members of my brother's haplogroup I1 DF29- Y DNA cluster to do the same. Their web site comes across as outright hiding something, from the amount of information it does not give. It does not tell who founded the company, who their principle officers and researchers are, or what is their background. A web site that explains that would take a week max to set up, so the fact that the Delaware Secretary of State's web shows it to be two months old doesn't explain it.

Information on the Delaware Secretary of State web site is suspicious for the lack of information, though that could be a problem with the organization of that web site; one may simply not be able to learn much without paying a $20 fee, which, trust me, I will do in a week or two if noone has come forth with the names and locations of the major corporate officers in the mean time. I learned that a dummy corporation with a Delaware address is the registered agent. To be sure, "Corporate Services" or whatever may be the registered agent for alot of out of state companies that choose to incorporate in Delaware. Why did I even look in Delaware? Because they didn't register in their own state of Maryland, and many businesses who have anything even a little ethically screwy about them register in Delaware. The vast majority of companies incorporate in their own states.

There really is no information about this company ANY where else. Not in the news. Not on the web. Google can't find them except their web page and personal page, and neither can Google news. If they're on the up and up, they should be a subject of discussion. On another list, some people are claiming to have more knowledge and refusing to share it, which has raised all my red flags and all of my hackles. Good, decent and trustworthy corporate owners in the field of genetic genealogy do not conceal who they are, and quite to the contrary, they share that information to the hilt.

This forum has more information, but not much. There is a vague statement about the company having been founded by leaders in the genetic genealogy community who are fed up with what is currently being done. This could mean anything. I need to know specifically who these leaders are. One possibility is that these "leaders of the genetic genealogy community" are leaders in their own minds, who want to be leaders of money out of our wallets. Another possibility is that they are leaders of the genetic genealogy community, and they are good and ethical people in their own right, but they are gravely mistaken in supporting this company. We deserve to know who they are so that we can evaluate their judgement for ourselves. For instance, one Cece Moore, who runs the DNA newbies list, answered my question about who are these people in a confusing way that probably mistakenly made it look like she is one of these founders. I thought I had put this misunderstanding to bed, but I come here and find more references to what she said. Cece Moore herself is a good and well meaning person; I actually think highly of her, even though her fell off the cliff support of 23andMe and of controversial methods of DNA testing is highly problematic. The specific problems I have with her judgement could describe alot of people currently involved with genetic genealogy . One problem with Cece Moore is that she's an ardent supporter of 23andMe, which has grave ethical problems and issues of fundamental responsibility; this causes me not to trust Cece's judgement about what companies are worth backing. Her ardent support of almost worthless for most purposes relative/ family finder testing could also cause one to fail to endorse a new company or idea based on her endorsement. This suggests that well meaning people could support a bad, corrupt or outright fraudulent company. In my eight years of involvement I've also often seen issues of ego and personality often sway the minds of the leadership of the genetic genealogy community more than logic or information. There are any number of ways people can tend to be wrong, and the simple fact is, we deserve the chance to evaluate these alleged references for ourselves. What is more, 23andMe illustrates that not all companies who are taking leadership roles in genetic genealogy are honest and ethical. These concerns make it extremely important to see a list, of specifically who founded this company, who are its corporate officers, who fill its chief scientific roles, and what are the specific names and specific involvement of any "leaders of the genetic genealogy community" who are involved in it.

Stability is a major concern as well. In about 2005, I ordered a complete mitochondrial DNA sequence from Argus, which was a one man operation run by David White. He contracted with a lab to do the actual sequencing. He and Family Tree DNA were the two options for complete mitochondrial DNA testing, and at the time when I placed my order, he had a better reputation than Family Tree DNA. He must have been about to come unstuck. My "preliminary results" showed two private mutations, in haplogroup H1, not previously found. Young, demographically dense Haplogroup H is a dense bush of coding region mutations never found before. The science is young, and people more often than not have coding region mutations that have never been found before. My final results didn't include them. I asked David White about it. It consistently took him weeks and repeated efforts to contact him for him to get back to me on anything. He finally told me they weren't real mutations. I wondered, and I could afford it at the time, so I had Family Tree DNA do my mitochondrial sequence over again, for another $500. They reported both of those two mutations. After weeks and repeated efforts to contact him, David White responded that he didn't believe the mutations because they are "protein changing" and have never been found before, but now that a second company found that I have these two mutations, they've been "reported twice", which confirms their existence, so he's changing my report. Incidentally, I've not been able to confirm that the mutations are "protein changing"; certainly they don't change the spelling of the affected amino acids. Shortly after that David White went out of business, or atleast he went out of the mitochondrial DNA sequencing business. I don't know if he went to a psychiatric hospital, if he suddenly Saw the Light and realized that this field is not for him, or if his creditors came and got him.

If there are people here who know the information, or if there are people here who are involved with this company, which does come across in the discussion, please be fully forthcoming about who are the founders, officers, chief scientists, and other backers, and what is their relevant experience.

I might also point out that failure to be forthcoming with this information is already costing this company control over the matter. If they had shared it forthrightly in the first place, none of these questions would have been raised, and noone would for instance have been delving into what is specifically in Secretary of State corporate databases, nor would I know that they don't belong to their local Better Business Bureau, who has never heard of them. Furthermore, I have had some very bad experiences in the field of genetic genealogy, with project managers who have an engineering mentality and can't relate to people or don't want to be bothered with people. People like that can't be bothered with their project members and their customers, and it's bad news for people trying to do business with them, or depending on them for some service such as to make it possible for people to join their project (I kid you not). So far, the people running this company have demonstrated the public relations skills of either complete crooks, or antisocial idiots.

Do I correctly understand that the laboratory that is doing the test is BGI?

Thanks!

Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:09 pm
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:27 pm
villandra wrote:I'm with AJRLLegits. Way too many questions, way too few answers, and way to hard to get the answers, to plain, simple questions, like, "Who are these people?"

I too need to know who and what these people are, and what is their background, before I order from them, or urge other members of my brother's haplogroup I1 DF29- Y DNA cluster to do the same. Their web site comes across as outright hiding something, from the amount of information it does not give. It does not tell who founded the company, who their principle officers and researchers are, or what is their background. A web site that explains that would take a week max to set up, so the fact that the Delaware Secretary of State's web shows it to be two months old doesn't explain it.

Information on the Delaware Secretary of State web site is suspicious for the lack of information, though that could be a problem with the organization of that web site; one may simply not be able to learn much without paying a $20 fee, which, trust me, I will do in a week or two if noone has come forth with the names and locations of the major corporate officers in the mean time. I learned that a dummy corporation with a Delaware address is the registered agent. To be sure, "Corporate Services" or whatever may be the registered agent for alot of out of state companies that choose to incorporate in Delaware. Why did I even look in Delaware? Because they didn't register in their own state of Maryland, and many businesses who have anything even a little ethically screwy about them register in Delaware. The vast majority of companies incorporate in their own states.

There really is no information about this company ANY where else. Not in the news. Not on the web. Google can't find them except their web page and personal page, and neither can Google news. If they're on the up and up, they should be a subject of discussion. On another list, some people are claiming to have more knowledge and refusing to share it, which has raised all my red flags and all of my hackles. Good, decent and trustworthy corporate owners in the field of genetic genealogy do not conceal who they are, and quite to the contrary, they share that information to the hilt.

This forum has more information, but not much. There is a vague statement about the company having been founded by leaders in the genetic genealogy community who are fed up with what is currently being done. This could mean anything. I need to know specifically who these leaders are. One possibility is that these "leaders of the genetic genealogy community" are leaders in their own minds, who want to be leaders of money out of our wallets. Another possibility is that they are leaders of the genetic genealogy community, and they are good and ethical people in their own right, but they are gravely mistaken in supporting this company. We deserve to know who they are so that we can evaluate their judgement for ourselves. For instance, one Cece Moore, who runs the DNA newbies list, answered my question about who are these people in a confusing way that probably mistakenly made it look like she is one of these founders. I thought I had put this misunderstanding to bed, but I come here and find more references to what she said. Cece Moore herself is a good and well meaning person; I actually think highly of her, even though her fell off the cliff support of 23andMe and of controversial methods of DNA testing is highly problematic. The specific problems I have with her judgement could describe alot of people currently involved with genetic genealogy . One problem with Cece Moore is that she's an ardent supporter of 23andMe, which has grave ethical problems and issues of fundamental responsibility; this causes me not to trust Cece's judgement about what companies are worth backing. Her ardent support of almost worthless for most purposes relative/ family finder testing could also cause one to fail to endorse a new company or idea based on her endorsement. This suggests that well meaning people could support a bad, corrupt or outright fraudulent company. In my eight years of involvement I've also often seen issues of ego and personality often sway the minds of the leadership of the genetic genealogy community more than logic or information. There are any number of ways people can tend to be wrong, and the simple fact is, we deserve the chance to evaluate these alleged references for ourselves. What is more, 23andMe illustrates that not all companies who are taking leadership roles in genetic genealogy are honest and ethical. These concerns make it extremely important to see a list, of specifically who founded this company, who are its corporate officers, who fill its chief scientific roles, and what are the specific names and specific involvement of any "leaders of the genetic genealogy community" who are involved in it.

Stability is a major concern as well. In about 2005, I ordered a complete mitochondrial DNA sequence from Argus, which was a one man operation run by David White. He contracted with a lab to do the actual sequencing. He and Family Tree DNA were the two options for complete mitochondrial DNA testing, and at the time when I placed my order, he had a better reputation than Family Tree DNA. He must have been about to come unstuck. My "preliminary results" showed two private mutations, in haplogroup H1, not previously found. Young, demographically dense Haplogroup H is a dense bush of coding region mutations never found before. The science is young, and people more often than not have coding region mutations that have never been found before. My final results didn't include them. I asked David White about it. It consistently took him weeks and repeated efforts to contact him for him to get back to me on anything. He finally told me they weren't real mutations. I wondered, and I could afford it at the time, so I had Family Tree DNA do my mitochondrial sequence over again, for another $500. They reported both of those two mutations. After weeks and repeated efforts to contact him, David White responded that he didn't believe the mutations because they are "protein changing" and have never been found before, but now that a second company found that I have these two mutations, they've been "reported twice", which confirms their existence, so he's changing my report. Incidentally, I've not been able to confirm that the mutations are "protein changing"; certainly they don't change the spelling of the affected amino acids. Shortly after that David White went out of business, or atleast he went out of the mitochondrial DNA sequencing business. I don't know if he went to a psychiatric hospital, if he suddenly Saw the Light and realized that this field is not for him, or if his creditors came and got him.

If there are people here who know the information, or if there are people here who are involved with this company, which does come across in the discussion, please be fully forthcoming about who are the founders, officers, chief scientists, and other backers, and what is their relevant experience.

Do I correctly understand that the laboratory that is doing the test is BGI?

Thanks!


Who are these people?"

Justin Loe (me) CEO
Leon Kull, director
Paul Conroy, director

"Their web site comes across as outright hiding something, from the amount of information it does not give. It does not tell who founded the company, who their principle officers and researchers are, or what is their background. "

Leon Kull is well known in the genetic genealogy community, is the author of HIRsearch (http://hiropractic.snpology.com/22/).

Paul Conroy has 20 years of computer experience, Leon Kull is a software architect, I have a background in genetics.

"Information on the Delaware Secretary of State web site is suspicious for the lack of information,"

There's no conspiracy here. I've been involved in genetic genealogy since 2006, have > 1,000 posts on many genetic genealogy forums. Leon Kull has been involved in many of the genetics projects at FTDNA over the years.

Do I correctly understand that the laboratory that is doing the test is BGI?

Yes, sequencing is done at BGI, in Hong Kong.

If you want, send me a PM and we can discuss and clarify any questions via telephone.

I might add that we already have a number of customers who have received their raw data and likewise I can refer them to you should you want an independent assessment (i.e. an assessment not from a person affiliated with our company).

Also:

Ray Banks has posted the results of the first three of his samples that he had sequenced here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... PV2c#gid=0

see columns J,K, N

Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:09 pm
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:40 pm
Follow-up:

As I stated in the previous post, the best assessment of our work is from people who have already tested with us, and they can provide an unbiased assessment, i.e. customer rating, of all of our work.

I can also be emailed directly via my genealogy email:

justingenealogy11 @gmail.com

Sincerely,

Justin Loe
User avatar
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:26 am
Location: Austin, TX
YDNA:
I1 DF29-
MtDNA:
H1am1
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:47 pm
Thanks - please e-mail me at dora.smith.e@gmail.com, and I will send my phone number. Or send me yours.

I actually caught on a second scan of the site the reference to Leon Kull, and this web site has strong similarities to the Full Genomics Corporation web site, supporting the poor social skills and lack of willingness to deal with people interpretation.

http://hiropractic.snpology.com/22/

OK, I went to check it out. I got a search engine that doesn't provide me with any idea of what it is or how to use it. Well, maybe because it's the search engine. There is no button to go to the home page or the page that explains it, but I just clipped the subfolder out of the url, to go to the home page, and got one. There is no explanation there of what this site is or what it does, or how to use it, of any description. Instead it starts with "Congratulations! If you are seeing this it means you've successfully set up the Tomcat server". I don't know what the Tomcat server is and didn't set it up - or did I? Before getting to that, it comes across that if I hadn't set up the Tomcat server properly I'd have gotten no page at all. I think that actually is my long ago experience with this web site, which has more than one tool on it. I think it might conceivably have something to do with a web site that gives various sorts of analysis of where your ancestors lived in Neolithic times. I know I found that set of pages very hard to use, with little plain English guidance on how ot use it, and to this day the people who've set it up refuse to clearly explain to anyone how they come up with the ancestral analysis that they do, as in what SNPs do they use and where did they get the notions that they are confined to specific regions.

Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:09 pm
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:52 pm
villandra wrote:Thanks - please e-mail me at dora.smith.e@gmail.com, and I will send my phone number. Or send me yours.

I actually caught on a second scan of the site the reference to Leon Kull, and this web site has strong similarities to the Full Genomics Corporation web site, supporting the poor social skills and lack of willingness to deal with people interpretation.

http://hiropractic.snpology.com/22/

OK, I went to check it out. I got a search engine that doesn't provide me with any idea of what it is or how to use it. Well, maybe because it's the search engine. There is no button to go to the home page or the page that explains it, but I just clipped the subfolder out of the url, to go to the home page, and got one. There is no explanation there of what this site is or what it does, or how to use it, of any description. Instead it starts with "Congratulations! If you are seeing this it means you've successfully set up the Tomcat server". I don't know what the Tomcat server is and didn't set it up - or did I? Before getting to that, it comes across that if I hadn't set up the Tomcat server properly I'd have gotten no page at all. I think that actually is my long ago experience with this web site, which has more than one tool on it. I think it might conceivably have something to do with a web site that gives various sorts of analysis of where your ancestors lived in Neolithic times. I know I found that set of pages very hard to use, with little plain English guidance on how ot use it, and to this day the people who've set it up refuse to clearly explain to anyone how they come up with the ancestral analysis that they do, as in what SNPs do they use and where did they get the notions that they are confined to specific regions.


Hello Dora,

Please keep in mind that our website will become more comprehensive with more information. We are rapidly developing new features that will be added as soon as possible.

Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:16 pm
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:33 pm
villandra wrote:The vast majority of companies incorporate in their own states.

False.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/busin ... d=all&_r=0
---
Nearly half of all public corporations in the United States are incorporated in Delaware.
---

The article cites some examples, a veritable who's-who of the corporate world: American Airlines, Apple, Bank of America, Berkshire Hathaway, Cargill, Coca-Cola, Ford, General Electric, Google, JPMorgan Chase, and Wal-Mart.
User avatar
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:26 am
Location: Austin, TX
YDNA:
I1 DF29-
MtDNA:
H1am1
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:36 pm
Looking forward to that updated site.

Well recognized or large doesn't equate to having any sort of ethical problems - look again at the companies you listed. Now, why, I wonder, would, for instance, Bank of America have incorporated in Delaware? I can't imagine, now really... ;) I did think about how to put that. Doesn't matter WHAT they're hiding, companies with any sort of ethical issues tend to register in Delaware.

Most companies I've ever looked up were incorporated in the states where they were located or headquartered.

Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:46 am
Location: Russia
YDNA:
N-Y4339
MtDNA:
K1c1e
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:11 am
Y Prime from Full Genomes for 589$.

https://www.fullgenomes.com/

http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/fu ... new-y.html

Image

Read lenght:
BigY 100bp
Y Prime 150bp (it's best)
Y Elite 100bp
Previous

Return to N Haplogroup (Y-DNA)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron