"Origins and dispersals of Y-chromosome haplogroup N"


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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:21 pm

YDNA:
N-Z16975
MtDNA:
K2b1a1
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:33 pm
Dienekes linked to a new paper on haplogroup N. He takes issue with their mutation rate, and subsequently the age estimates. A commenter noted that their nomenclature is different from ISOGG's (about two years behind). However, they systematically collected lots of samples across Asia, and it seems like they've refined the migration route of our N* ancestors.

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Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:16 pm
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:37 pm
Unfortunately, the study includes neither of the two earliest offshoots from N1, namely P189.2 and L732, which (so far) have only been found in Europe. I have not seen a satisfactory explanation for the presence of the two earliest offshoots of N1 in Europe and not (yet found) in Asia.
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Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:39 pm

YDNA:
N1c1-L1022
MtDNA:
T2b7a1
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:48 am
The problem here (as in many new papers) that they didn´t test for much. 7 STR and maybe only 5 SNP, not even M178. Conclusions drawn on such meager data are not worth much. Anyway, nice to see some good samplings from China. Funny thing that haplogroup N is 20% in Shanxi and 0% in Shaanxi. :)

Yes, N comes from the East but I still don´t buy the southern (Indochina) birthplace and the secondary home in Northern Siberia. Southern Asia is pretty much devoid of haplogroup N and the conditions in Siberia is more about to survive then to expand the population.

Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:10 am

YDNA:
N1c1-L1025
MtDNA:
K1a1b1a
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:56 pm
Yes, but the paper may serve other (non-genetic) purposes, such as genetically linking China and Tibet, thus validating political actions. Especially questionable when produced by the occupying power.

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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:58 pm
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:54 pm
The new paper leads to the conclusion that the roots of N must be re-evaluated, as there are no early or any types of N in Southeast Asia. Thus the material does not show any real connections of N to NO and K or find the ancestral type in a definite way.
One explanation is offered in another new Chinese paper by Wang and Li.

http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A101.pdf

They have the idea that O and N would have arrived across Northern India and over mountains from Burma to Sechuan-Yunnan region. Then N would have migrated North and O towards East and South. This would explain their density in China , as N is prominent in Sechuan-Yunnan region.
On the other hand there is no NO or N in India, and only a very small population of O in the Northeast.
One possibility , would be an " intermediate route" if both Southern and Northern route explanations have their problems.
We could suppose that N and O had the same route as P in Wang and Li figure 2 to Central Asia. After that they moved to East Turkestan ( Sinkiang)
through Dzhungaria Pass that Genghis Khan later used.
Some 10 000 years ago the regions South of Altay and Sayan mountains were not dry desert but had good water resources, to feed a fishing population that N has everywhere been. When water became scarce it was possible to follow Yangtze and Yellow river Eastwards, and then Selenga-Yenisey to Siberia. In Southern Siberia Ob and its tributaries were a route to Urals and Europe.
One mystery is that the European N1c populations do not have any East Asian mtDNA and are European autosomally. This would be explained if N1c emerged in Central Asia and then migrated counter-clockwise a full circle around Altay and Sayan, without visiting East Asian parts of China.

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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:58 pm
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:17 pm
Dienekes has a post about a new Chinese paper : Y-Chromosome Analysis of Prehistoric populations in the Liao River Valley.
The conclusion about N1c seems to be that it was a recent arrival from Northern Steppe. Also there are hints that populations in South China may also have arrived from the North.
In the discussion opinions arise that N and O did not arrive from Southeast Asia, but migrated from North to South.
As there are objections against the route North of Altay-Sayan mountains, an intermediate route could be considered.
That would mean migration through passes from Central Asia to East Turkestan/Sinkiang, and then along Yangtze and Yellow River East and South.
That would not be possible now over deserts, but Taklamakan and Gobi may have been steppe during the era described. Forests and lakes may also have existed earlier, and the major river routes would have been available farther in the West.
The hint to Yakuts is not useful, as their N1c is very young, probably from a recent migration from Altay region.

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2013/10/anc ... -liao.html

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... 13-216.pdf

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