Ancestral homeland

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:42 pm
Hi James

I don't believe that FamilyFinder could help. Your autosomes have from Texas and England, only a bit from Balticum. Your family has been outside Balticum about 1000 years or more.

Most N1c1 of Estonia in my mind are L1022, but we must get more SNPs from Estonia and eastern neighbor. It could help.
Sasha could you place James only in the L1022 clade and make the picture?
My homeland picture is baseing on FF (autosomes) and it is like the picture of James origin that you have made.


Juhani, Thank you for your advice and assistance. Sasha does some good work too! :D
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 4:12 am
Don't forget the Finns! They're are nice bunch as well :D
Especially given the fact they might end up being your ancestors, although as I said how far do you want to go back as we Balts have the same ancestors as the Finns do, so we all come from the same ancestor. :geek:

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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:04 pm
sasha39 wrote:By FTDNA calculations this is my Ancestral homeland.

Image

Well it looks like FTDNA might have got this one right, if indeed I am part of the Gediminids dynasty clan you would expect such as result
The Gediminids dynasty ruled over Lithuania from the early 1300’s, when Lithuania covered a larger area of central Europe


Interesting Sasha!

I have records that place my ancestors in Scotland from the early 1200's. I have many ideas on how they got there, but its interesting to compare to another origins map.

Here is ours:

Image
FTDNA Kit# 217193 | N1c1a1a1a - L550(xL1025)
FTDNA Kit# 223996(YF01820) | N-L550*(CTS8428 • S23232/Z4945 • S431/L550 • Z4776 • Z4885 • Z4908)
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:40 am
Hi Gavin,

Thanks for posting, yes tracing one ancestors can by very tricky as these Ancestral homeland diagrams are based on Autosomal DNA and this system is only accurate to about 7 to 8 generations so that is why your diagram is so concentrated around Britain as you would expect being able to trace you Ancestors back to the 1200's in Scotland, but If you would like to go back further I'd be looking at that concentration around Norway/Sweden. :D
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:44 am
I attempted my own little research project to determine when and where my Yorkshire born Crowther N1c1 distant ancestor would have arrived in England. The method that I followed was developed by Professors Mike Jobling, Turi King, and other professors of the University of Leicester and published in the books “Viking DNA: “The Wirral and West Lancashire Project” and “Surnames, DNA, and Family History” with the exception I had to rely on FTDNA and ySearch as the sources of my SNP and DYS data in this attempt to identify the other ancient surnames and their YDNA that resided with the Crowthers prior to 1066. Even though the methods used required over 40 hours of work to obtain results, the results seem fairly reliable. These results indicates that the probably that my N1c1 Crowther came to England with a band of Swedish Vikings who arrived in England between the years 865 and 875 with the Great Danish Army (also known as the Great Viking Army or the Great Heathen Army) is better than 80%.

The ancient families who resided with the Crowthers within the Manor of Wakefield (the region of southwestern Yorkshire) provided sufficient data to identify 40 ancient Yorkshire unique surnames and their respective Y-DNA. Within the group of 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames a total of 22 (55%) of these surnames (including Crowther) also had Y-DNA of Scandinavian origin. Of these 22 Yorkshire Scandinavians there were 16 whose DYS markers had 10/10 matches to the DYS markers identified in Professors Andreas Karlsson’s “Y-Chromosome Diversity in Sweden – A Long-time Perspective.” Among the Yorkshire Swedish DYS 10/10 matches the specific Y-DNA subclades included: E-M84, I-P109, I-L205, R-Z93, R-M269, R-U106, R-L21, R-L48, R-P312, and R-Z14. When I used ySearch to identify the time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) estimates, the timeframe of British Isle matches with the 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group was clearly distinct from those outside the British Isles. The British Isle TMRCA all had values greater than 10/67 with one 7/67 exception. The Scandinavian and European TMRCA matches had TCRMA values all greater than 9/67 for the Scandinavian matches and for the other European matches greater than 15/67. Bottom line is that my sample group of 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames was a fairly good sample group to do my analysis even though I had to rely on FTDNA projects and ySearch for the data.

The Great Britain Family Name website identifies that there are 423 surnames that are considered uniquely Yorkshire surnames. To show how much data had to be reviewed: of these 423 Yorkshire surnames 12 of the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames have uniquely Yorkshire surnames. The remaining 28 names were uniquely Yorkshire but were classified as a trade name (like Crowther) or one of the other eleven categories used by FBFN. All the surnames in the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames were the surnames of men (ages 20-40) recorded in the England 1851 census where 50% or more of these men had the same surname and were all born in Yorkshire. All the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames also had to meet the criteria of having been cited in the 13th Century court rolls of the Manor of Wakefield or the Hundred Roll of 1273, the 1379 Yorkshire Poll Tax, and named in the marriages recorded in the 16thand 17th century Church Records of West Yorkshire.

The Swedish districts that were the locations of 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group matches to the Swedish DYS markers was not conclusive. The results of the matches of the 16 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group were: four R1b from Uppsala; one R1b from each Västerbotten, Östergötland/Jönköping, Swedish Sami, and Värmland; the one E1b was a 10/10 match to Skaraborg; one R1a from Värmland; two I1a each matching to Värmland and Östergötland/Jönköping, respectively; and lastly the remaining four were three I1a with multiple 10/10 matches to Blekinge/Kristianstad; Gotland, Swedish Saami; Skaraborg; Uppsala; Värmland; Västerbotten; Österbotten and Östergötland/Jönköping and a R1b 10/10 match in both Swedish Saami and Skaraborg. What can be gleamed from this data is that it conforms what is known about the Great Danish Army being a very diverse group of Norseman from Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. The main discovery from the Y-DNA of the Yorkshire Scandinavian group is that 73% had DYS 10/10 matches with Swedish Y-DNA.

I began this project without any expectations of what would be the outcome. While it was much more work than what I believed it would be when I started, I am pleased that I was able to duplicate the techniques developed by Professors Jobling and King by using the data obtained in the FTDNA projects, using ySearch, and other tools available on the Internet. While the data that was available could not provide as good as results as possible, it yielded results that are adequate for my armature effort.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:35 pm
James B Crowther wrote:I attempted my own little research project to determine when and where my Yorkshire born Crowther N1c1 distant ancestor would have arrived in England. The method that I followed was developed by Professors Mike Jobling, Turi King, and other professors of the University of Leicester and published in the books “Viking DNA: “The Wirral and West Lancashire Project” and “Surnames, DNA, and Family History” with the exception I had to rely on FTDNA and ySearch as the sources of my SNP and DYS data in this attempt to identify the other ancient surnames and their YDNA that resided with the Crowthers prior to 1066. Even though the methods used required over 40 hours of work to obtain results, the results seem fairly reliable. These results indicates that the probably that my N1c1 Crowther came to England with a band of Swedish Vikings who arrived in England between the years 865 and 875 with the Great Danish Army (also known as the Great Viking Army or the Great Heathen Army) is better than 80%.

The ancient families who resided with the Crowthers within the Manor of Wakefield (the region of southwestern Yorkshire) provided sufficient data to identify 40 ancient Yorkshire unique surnames and their respective Y-DNA. Within the group of 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames a total of 22 (55%) of these surnames (including Crowther) also had Y-DNA of Scandinavian origin. Of these 22 Yorkshire Scandinavians there were 16 whose DYS markers had 10/10 matches to the DYS markers identified in Professors Andreas Karlsson’s “Y-Chromosome Diversity in Sweden – A Long-time Perspective.” Among the Yorkshire Swedish DYS 10/10 matches the specific Y-DNA subclades included: E-M84, I-P109, I-L205, R-Z93, R-M269, R-U106, R-L21, R-L48, R-P312, and R-Z14. When I used ySearch to identify the time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) estimates, the timeframe of British Isle matches with the 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group was clearly distinct from those outside the British Isles. The British Isle TMRCA all had values greater than 10/67 with one 7/67 exception. The Scandinavian and European TMRCA matches had TCRMA values all greater than 9/67 for the Scandinavian matches and for the other European matches greater than 15/67. Bottom line is that my sample group of 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames was a fairly good sample group to do my analysis even though I had to rely on FTDNA projects and ySearch for the data.

The Great Britain Family Name website identifies that there are 423 surnames that are considered uniquely Yorkshire surnames. To show how much data had to be reviewed: of these 423 Yorkshire surnames 12 of the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames have uniquely Yorkshire surnames. The remaining 28 names were uniquely Yorkshire but were classified as a trade name (like Crowther) or one of the other eleven categories used by FBFN. All the surnames in the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames were the surnames of men (ages 20-40) recorded in the England 1851 census where 50% or more of these men had the same surname and were all born in Yorkshire. All the 40 ancient Yorkshire surnames also had to meet the criteria of having been cited in the 13th Century court rolls of the Manor of Wakefield or the Hundred Roll of 1273, the 1379 Yorkshire Poll Tax, and named in the marriages recorded in the 16thand 17th century Church Records of West Yorkshire.

The Swedish districts that were the locations of 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group matches to the Swedish DYS markers was not conclusive. The results of the matches of the 16 10/10 Yorkshire Swedish group were: four R1b from Uppsala; one R1b from each Västerbotten, Östergötland/Jönköping, Swedish Sami, and Värmland; the one E1b was a 10/10 match to Skaraborg; one R1a from Värmland; two I1a each matching to Värmland and Östergötland/Jönköping, respectively; and lastly the remaining four were three I1a with multiple 10/10 matches to Blekinge/Kristianstad; Gotland, Swedish Saami; Skaraborg; Uppsala; Värmland; Västerbotten; Österbotten and Östergötland/Jönköping and a R1b 10/10 match in both Swedish Saami and Skaraborg. What can be gleamed from this data is that it conforms what is known about the Great Danish Army being a very diverse group of Norseman from Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. The main discovery from the Y-DNA of the Yorkshire Scandinavian group is that 73% had DYS 10/10 matches with Swedish Y-DNA.

I began this project without any expectations of what would be the outcome. While it was much more work than what I believed it would be when I started, I am pleased that I was able to duplicate the techniques developed by Professors Jobling and King by using the data obtained in the FTDNA projects, using ySearch, and other tools available on the Internet. While the data that was available could not provide as good as results as possible, it yielded results that are adequate for my armature effort.


James, Thank You for your intresting story. You have done great work. Your ancestors became with with a band of Swedish Vikings who arrived in England between the years 865 and 875 with the Great Danish Army (also known as the Great Viking Army or the Great Heathen Army) to England Yorskhire. There with the Great Danish Army was surely N1c1* men who lived around Baltic Sea. The Finnish were good sailors who rowed around Baltic Sea and the Rivers. They lived also at that time in Sweden and Åland Archipelagio. They spoke many languages Indoeuropeans and Finno-Ugric.

There was a possible Viking stronghold in Ålands in that time.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/archaeologists_fi ... ds/7242326
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/05/ev ... nds/103107
https://kvarnbohall.wordpress.com/tag/archaeology/

There was no inhabitants after Viking age on The Island Åland they have probaly gone towards England and Russia. Were the Rurikids starting From Åland?

"The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians—Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs—drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom". Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans and Angles, and still others Gutes, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Veps then said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

Rus may be also be origin of the word row (ro in Swdedish remark how they pronounce ro in Seweden). The Finnish sailors rowed around The Baltic Sea and Rivers.
Last edited by Juhani Wayrynen on Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:10 pm
James, I'm very impressed with your research. I'm very surprised though that you only took 40 hours! I have been at a similar quest for many years trying to identify when, and from where, my N1c1 (N-L550) paternal ancestor arrived in southern Norway. In B M Dupuy et al's 2005 article they found virtually no hg N in southern Norway, but in the latest FTDNA database there are a few, most of whom can trace their ancestry back to the Forest Finns who arrived after ca 1680.

I have a solid paper trail for my paternal ancestors back to just before AD 1600 to Vestfold in southern Norway, i.e. before the Forest Finn arrival, so I have to look for a different route back to Finland. The Norwegian patronymic naming convention, in use almost up to 1900, makes it very difficult to trace possible relations based on surnames as you were able to do in Yorkshire, but we have traced the paternal ancestor of a cluster of N1c1 men, from Norway and USA, back to a person in Hallingdal, born ca 1482. Unfortunately I'm not part of that cluster, but it proves that N1c1 men were present in southern Norway "quite close" to the Viking age, and after the Black Death tragedy, ca 1350, when half the population died.

I have Prof Karlsson's paper, but I don't have the Wirral/West Lancashire book so I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning using the 10 STR marker results. These markers were obviously different for the different haplogroups so which set of markers did you use to get your 10/10 results?

We are obviously in agreement that our paternal ancestors came from the Finland/East Baltic area, the question is when? The Great Danish/Heathen Army is one possibility, but I tend to think more in terms of a group of Finnish traders/merchants servicing the Viking settlements in England/Scotland and Norway just after the end of the "fighting/conquering" period, say 1000-1100, and some of them settled among their customers. My only slight reason for this theory is that my Vestfold ancestors lived only a stone-throw away from the Viking trade centre of Kaupang!
Y-DNA: Hg N1c1a1a1a N3115 / SW7S9
mtDNA: Hg J1c2f

Paternal and maternal ancestors all Norwegians, 9 and 6 generations respectively.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:56 am
Svein wrote:James, I'm very impressed with your research. I'm very surprised though that you only took 40 hours! I have been at a similar quest for many years trying to identify when, and from where, my N1c1 (N-L550) paternal ancestor arrived in southern Norway. In B M Dupuy et al's 2005 article they found virtually no hg N in southern Norway, but in the latest FTDNA database there are a few, most of whom can trace their ancestry back to the Forest Finns who arrived after ca 1680.

I have a solid paper trail for my paternal ancestors back to just before AD 1600 to Vestfold in southern Norway, i.e. before the Forest Finn arrival, so I have to look for a different route back to Finland. The Norwegian patronymic naming convention, in use almost up to 1900, makes it very difficult to trace possible relations based on surnames as you were able to do in Yorkshire, but we have traced the paternal ancestor of a cluster of N1c1 men, from Norway and USA, back to a person in Hallingdal, born ca 1482. Unfortunately I'm not part of that cluster, but it proves that N1c1 men were present in southern Norway "quite close" to the Viking age, and after the Black Death tragedy, ca 1350, when half the population died.

I have Prof Karlsson's paper, but I don't have the Wirral/West Lancashire book so I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning using the 10 STR marker results. These markers were obviously different for the different haplogroups so which set of markers did you use to get your 10/10 results?

We are obviously in agreement that our paternal ancestors came from the Finland/East Baltic area, the question is when? The Great Danish/Heathen Army is one possibility, but I tend to think more in terms of a group of Finnish traders/merchants servicing the Viking settlements in England/Scotland and Norway just after the end of the "fighting/conquering" period, say 1000-1100, and some of them settled among their customers. My only slight reason for this theory is that my Vestfold ancestors lived only a stone-throw away from the Viking trade centre of Kaupang!


Hi Svein,

Thank so much for your reply. In answer to your question, I used the 9 DYS markers for all the haplogroups identified by Prof Karlsson to find where any of the men he tested exactly matched any of the 40 men with ancient Yorkshire surnames that had the same haplotypes. I should have stated 9/9 matches rather than 10/10.

I believe that your thinking about Finish traders/merchants and your Kaupang theory are also good. There is no evidence in my little study that disproves your thinking and theory. It was ysearch that provided me with some evidence with TMRCA subclade matches to my 16 9/9Yorkshire Swedish group. There were a few clusters among this group who had close ysearch matches to other men with ancient East Anglia surnames. East Anglia was the location where the Great Danish Army arrived and had extensive operations. There was also good evidence from ysearch matches that the ancestors of most of the Yorkshire Scandinavian Group likely came into southwestern Yorkshire from the south, through Derbyshire and Lincolnshire rather than from Lancashire in the west or from York in the east. Although the Yorkshire Scandinavian group clearly had some who had surname and Y-DNA connections to Cheshire, Lancashire, and Ireland, the numbers of the surnames possible was no more than two or three of the 22 in the Yorkshire Scandinavian group.

Some interesting additional information about six surnames of the 22 Yorkshire Scandinavians who were not among the 9/9 Yorkshire Swedish surname group. This group of six included my N-L1022 Crowther surname (no surprise) and surnames whose ancestors were two Frisian Vikings who were R-U106 and R-L48 and a R-PAGE00007 Polish Viking. It was this mix of different Y-DNA subclades in this non-Swedish Yorkshire Scandinavian group that got me thinking that most of the ancestors of the Yorkshire Scandinavian surnames group were warriors or settlers who came with the Great Danish Army. The Frisian Vikings Y-DNA matches were a very important discovery as it is my understanding that Frisian cavalry was among Ivan the Boneless warriors.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:46 pm
Juhani Wayrynen wrote:
James, Thank You for your intresting story. You have done great work. Your ancestors became with with a band of Swedish Vikings who arrived in England between the years 865 and 875 with the Great Danish Army (also known as the Great Viking Army or the Great Heathen Army) to England Yorskhire. There with the Great Danish Army was surely N1c1* men who lived around Baltic Sea. The Finnish were good sailors who rowed around Baltic Sea and the Rivers. They lived also at that time in Sweden and Åland Archipelagio. They spoke many languages Indoeuropeans and Finno-Ugric.

There was a possible Viking stronghold in Ålands in that time.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/archaeologists_fi ... ds/7242326
http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/05/ev ... nds/103107
https://kvarnbohall.wordpress.com/tag/archaeology/

There was no inhabitants after Viking age on The Island Åland they have probaly gone towards England and Russia. Were the Rurikids stasting From Åland?

"The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians—Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs—drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom". Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans and Angles, and still others Gutes, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Veps then said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

Rus may be also be orogin of the word row (ro in Swdedish). The Finnish sailors rowed around The Baltic Sea and Rivers.


Juhani, As always, thank you so much for your contributions to this site. Åland is of great interest to me as well because currently my closest N-L1022+ STR match comes from that region.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:34 pm
Because I did not have more N-L1022 YDNA data to provide any useful data that I had hoped for I decided to analyze the Englishmen who tested N-L550+ to determine whether this group could provide any useful data for my little study.

The English N-L550+ group proved to be very good source of data for my little study of Yorkshire Scandinavian YDNA. Within the N-L550+ community of England two of five N-L550 surnames provided excellent SNP and DYS data. None of these N-L550 surnames originated in southwest Yorkshire. However, they complemented the Yorkshire ancient surnames and YDNA data that I had collected very well.

The two surnames which were the best data sources from the five candidate that I analyzed in the N-L550 group were the ancient surnames of Faram of Worchester and Chappilow of North Yorkshire. Faram (N95810/2H224) and Chappilow (172425/PNG8V) are 9/9 matches to Swedish DYS values. Faram is a 9/9 match to Swedish Saami and Österbotten and Chappilow is a 9/9 match to Uppsala and Västerbotten. These are the same regions that matched Huntsman, (165630/QP285) N-L1022+ who had 9/9 matches to Uppsala, Västerbotten, and Österbotten, and the 9/9 Yorkshire Swedish surnames who tested R1b and I1a. Furthermore, the TMRCA genetic distance data associated with these surnames provided sufficient data to indicate their Scandinavian ancestors arrived in England prior to 1066 and likely arrived in England about the same time as the Great Danish Army.

With the addition of this data from the English N-L550+ group the data indicated to me that the Scandinavian ancestors of all the Haplogroup N Englishmen likely arrived about the same time as the Great Danish Army and they came with different family groups rather than a single family group of warriors or settlers. These Hg N men settled in England’s east and west midland regions and the Yorkshire region. All these regions were within the Danelaw boundaries.

In examining all the collective data for the entire study there is a hint (but nowhere near conclusive) that the YDNA trail leads from southwest Yorkshire southward to Sheffield. At Sheffield the trail seems to split, with one trail continuing southward through Nottingham, Derby, and Leicester to Rugby while the other trail goes eastwards towards Lincoln. The western trail from Rugby continues to the southeast to Bletchley whereupon it continues to the East of England region. The eastern trail continues from Lincoln southward to the East of England region. Not surprising is that the southwest Yorkshire YDNA trails follows the old roman road network.

From England the YDNA trail crosses the North Sea to the Netherlands, Denmark, the coastal areas of Baltic Sea region, the Gulf of Bothnia, and the finally to Uppsala, , Västerbotten, and Österbotten. The data I have analyzed is very spare but I believe it is enough to suggest that the Scandinavian YDNA ancestry in the ancient surnames of southern Yorkshire came from many different areas in the Baltic Sea region but all about the time as the Great Danish/Heathen Army.

There is no evidence so far that supports the idea that any Hg N YDNA in southwestern Yorkshire arrived there from paternal ancestors who came from western Scandinavia, Ireland, or Scotland. However, I hope that as more Yorkshiremen get their YDNA tested their will be more Hg N data to estimate the time and the location that their YDNA arrived in the British Isles and Yorkshire.
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