Phylogenetic tree of haplogroup N1 by Yurgan


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YDNA:
N1c1-Z1935
MtDNA:
U4a
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:24 am
Phylogenetic tree of haplogroup N1 by Yurgan

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Last edited by Yurgan on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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YDNA:
N1c1 Z1940
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H
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:34 am
Many thanks for the update, Yurgan. A small detail: would it be possible to rename the "Pre-Finn" into something else such as for example Ladogan, for ladogan it mostly seems to be. Regarding Finland, DYS 390=23->24 etc. has been mostly, of course not fully, restricted to eastern Finland close to Ladoga, - and apparently in areas east and south of that. Besides, there are many Finns with other lineages too.

I know that Mouglley has been thinking of "Volgaic", it sounds like a good idea too, but I'll leave it to you to decide.

EDIT Based on it's current distribution, if not somewhere near Ladoga, I'd guess that the subgroup was born somewhere in later Mari-Merya-Veps communities, further in the est?

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YDNA:
N1c1-Z1935
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U4a
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:52 am
Huckleberry Finn wrote:Many thanks for the update, Yurgan. A small detail: would it be possible to rename the "Pre-Finn" into something else such as for example Ladogan, for ladogan it mostly seems to be. Regarding Finland, DYS 390=23->24 etc. has been mostly, of course not fully, restricted to eastern Finland close to Ladoga, - and apparently in areas east and south of that. Besides, there are many Finns with other lineages too.

I know that Mouglley has been thinking of "Volgaic", it sounds like a good idea too, but I'll leave it to you to decide.

EDIT Based on it's current distribution, if not somewhere near Ladoga, I'd guess that the subgroup was born somewhere in later Mari-Merya-Veps communities, further in the est?



Please note some changes.
N1a merged with N1b

In the branch PreFinn while only two haplotypes in the project.
It is not entirely clear, the possibility of reverse mutation.
Also still not clear where there was division Karel Savo and branches.
Finnokarelskimi branch named, because there are almost never met outside of Finland and the border area
The remaining branches are well represented both in Russia and in Finland.
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YDNA:
N1c1 Z1940
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:08 am
Yurgan wrote:Finnokarelskimi branch named, because there are almost never met outside of Finland and the border area
The remaining branches are well represented both in Russia and in Finland.

Exactly, therefore "Ladogan", maybe even "Pre-Carelian"? The Savonians were also, in any case, mentioned as Carelians in the early finnish sources.

Regarding the distribution: I've noticed that there are at least some carelian N1c's among the ethnic Russians, sometimes in places such as Dvina region, maybe related to chud zavolotshkaja? Besides, I think that I've seen some carelian looking kits among the Bashkirians, the Chuvash and the Tatar. If I'm right, there is a mari type of a substrate in the Chuvash. The subgroup may therefore have been born already in the Dyakovo complex, ancestral possibly to the Mari, the Merya and the Veps. Veps, on the other hand, is according to my understanding one of the ancestral populations of the Carelians.

However, as even the medieval russian annals mention that the Ves i.e. possibly the Vepsians lived quite far in the east, in the towns by Volga, it is possible that the subclade is for instance just western Vepsian.
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YDNA:
N1c1d(L550)
MtDNA:
J1c3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:52 am
Huckleberry Finn wrote:Regarding the distribution: I've noticed that there are at least some carelian N1c's among the ethnic Russians, sometimes in places such as Dvina region, maybe related to chud zavolotshkaja?

As far as I know in Russian hystory there were several facts of migrations of Karelians to the Dvina and Tver' regions.
Y-DNA: N1с1d*; P188-; M178+; P298+; P21-; P67-; P119-; L248+(23andMe); L248-(FamilyTreeDNA); L550+; L1025+
YSearch: KABEC
FamilyTree: 106620
CCR5: del32-normal
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YDNA:
N1c1 Z1940
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H
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:23 pm
mouglley wrote:
Huckleberry Finn wrote:Regarding the distribution: I've noticed that there are at least some carelian N1c's among the ethnic Russians, sometimes in places such as Dvina region, maybe related to chud zavolotshkaja?

As far as I know in Russian hystory there were several facts of migrations of Karelians to the Dvina and Tver' regions.

You're right. But, where did these Carelians originally come from? Most probably only not from western parts of Finland. Svir-Ojat-Syas rivers? Ingrian plain? Some other place? Some part of the carelian ancestry is for sure related to the eastward migration of the Tavastians, during Viking Age, but not this part, I'd guess.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:43 pm
Huckleberry Finn wrote:But, where did these Carelians originally come from? Most probably only not from western parts of Finland. Svir-Ojat-Syas rivers? Ingrian plain? Some other place? Some part of the carelian ancestry is for sure related to the eastward migration of the Tavastians, during Viking Age, but not this part, I'd guess.

If you ask me, I think that the event of genesis of Karelian branch (DYS537=8=>9) took place somewhere in East Finland.
Y-DNA: N1с1d*; P188-; M178+; P298+; P21-; P67-; P119-; L248+(23andMe); L248-(FamilyTreeDNA); L550+; L1025+
YSearch: KABEC
FamilyTree: 106620
CCR5: del32-normal
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Location: Finland
YDNA:
N-Y4374
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U5b1b2
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:13 pm
mouglley wrote:
Huckleberry Finn wrote:But, where did these Carelians originally come from? Most probably only not from western parts of Finland. Svir-Ojat-Syas rivers? Ingrian plain? Some other place? Some part of the carelian ancestry is for sure related to the eastward migration of the Tavastians, during Viking Age, but not this part, I'd guess.

If you ask me, I think that the event of genesis of Karelian branch (DYS537=8=>9) took place somewhere in East Finland.


It seems, that Savo cluster (YCAllb 20->18) is about 1800-2000 years old and is born in Southern Savo. There are only a few savonians outside Finland.
Karelia cluster (DYS537 8->9) is probably born in Karelia of Finland or Russia and is 2000-2200 years old.
Karelian-Savonian Y-STR haplotypes (470) TMRCA is about 2500 years.

Finlands provinces
http://koti.mbnet.fi/juhani39/ProvKarttaVar.pdf
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:29 am
Juhani Wayrynen wrote:Karelia cluster (DYS537 8->9) is probably born in Karelia of Finland or Russia and is 2000-2200 years old.
Karelian-Savonian Y-STR haplotypes (470) TMRCA is about 2500 years.


Just wondering whether that 2000-2200 year hypothesis holds for DYS537 8->9. I may have misunderstood mutation rate based timing calculations, but the age of the cluster could be significantly larger. I have only looked at the distance of my own sample (ysearch id QQNAG, FTDNA kit 163129) from some other Karelian cluster members using YUtility.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:48 pm
osilven wrote:
Juhani Wayrynen wrote:Karelia cluster (DYS537 8->9) is probably born in Karelia of Finland or Russia and is 2000-2200 years old.
Karelian-Savonian Y-STR haplotypes (470) TMRCA is about 2500 years.


Just wondering whether that 2000-2200 year hypothesis holds for DYS537 8->9. I may have misunderstood mutation rate based timing calculations, but the age of the cluster could be significantly larger. I have only looked at the distance of my own sample (ysearch id QQNAG, FTDNA kit 163129) from some other Karelian cluster members using YUtility.


Node 163129 is one of the oldest karelian haplotypes. On the same branch is 167408.
Other old karelian haplotypes are (DYS537=9):
122726, 122863, 159196, 132919, 161335, 162567, 167356, 167408, 172038, 185414, 218428;
51003 DYS537=8 ja 186401 DYS537=10.
TMRCA is 2695+-273 years (Median Joining Network 4.6.1.0.) Oldest node is older than TMRCA, may be about 3000 years.
There have been many bottlenecks in the Finns and the genetic material is lost.
Are 51003 and 186401 Pre-Karelians?
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