Jewish hg. Q


Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 2:27 pm
From the "Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent- Background":

"Background
You do not have to be Jewish to join this group! We need your participation regardless of your current religion or the religion of your ancestors. Your data will help us determine if the high concentration of Jewish men in our group is merely a statistical anomaly or a reality.
We invite you to join if Family Tree DNA has assigned you a red or green Q, Q1 or Q1b and are of European descent. We are most interested in Q1b defined by SNP M378 but you do not have to be tested to join. If a person who is a close match to you is in our group then we want you as well. If you have any doubts at all please join.
Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area.
For centuries there was little intermarriage between northern European Jews and their neighbors. We wonder how Q1b yDNA came into our group and when. The discovery of more recently evolved SNPs may help us solve that mystery.
While we are focused on one small subgroup of Haplogroup Q we encourage all Qs to join the generic Q-YDA group administered by Rebekah Canada".

This is to reason correctly: not to test someone for demonstrating a presupposed origin but to test someone for discovering the true (by a genetic point of view) origin.
I'll study the case. It seems at a first sight that also this Jewish haplogroup is formed by one only subclade or by a few linked ones. I am waiting for a test, I invite to do, of an American of Tuscan descent whose we have only his first 12 markers, not because it is linked to these Jewish haplotypes (they rather find some linked haplotypes elsewhere in italy), but to demonstrate that also hg. Q is old in Europe. I'll say more when it arrives.
YNXH9 Pellegrini Italy
13 25 13 10 14 17 12 12 12 13 13 30
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Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:37 pm
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:37 pm
Gioiello wrote:From the "Jewish_Q -- YDNA Haplogroup Q1b of European Descent- Background":

"Background
You do not have to be Jewish to join this group! We need your participation regardless of your current religion or the religion of your ancestors. Your data will help us determine if the high concentration of Jewish men in our group is merely a statistical anomaly or a reality.
We invite you to join if Family Tree DNA has assigned you a red or green Q, Q1 or Q1b and are of European descent. We are most interested in Q1b defined by SNP M378 but you do not have to be tested to join. If a person who is a close match to you is in our group then we want you as well. If you have any doubts at all please join.
Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area.
For centuries there was little intermarriage between northern European Jews and their neighbors. We wonder how Q1b yDNA came into our group and when. The discovery of more recently evolved SNPs may help us solve that mystery.
While we are focused on one small subgroup of Haplogroup Q we encourage all Qs to join the generic Q-YDA group administered by Rebekah Canada".

This is to reason correctly: not to test someone for demonstrating a presupposed origin but to test someone for discovering the true (by a genetic point of view) origin.
I'll study the case. It seems at a first sight that also this Jewish haplogroup is formed by one only subclade or by a few linked ones. I am waiting for a test, I invite to do, of an American of Tuscan descent whose we have only his first 12 markers, not because it is linked to these Jewish haplotypes (they rather find some linked haplotypes elsewhere in italy), but to demonstrate that also hg. Q is old in Europe. I'll say more when it arrives.
YNXH9 Pellegrini Italy
13 25 13 10 14 17 12 12 12 13 13 30


Pellegrini is not Q1b (like Jewish Q-L245)
He is (probably) Q-L933 (Q1a).
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/neare ... ors/64042/
yDNA: Q1b1a (L245+ L315- L272-)
mtDNA: J1c2*
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ex oriente lux

Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:13 pm
Шад wrote:Pellegrini is not Q1b (like Jewish Q-L245)
He is (probably) Q-L933 (Q1a).
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/neare ... ors/64042/


Yes, of course, in fact I said: "not because it is linked to these Jewish haplotypes (they rather find some linked haplotypes elsewhere in Italy), but to demonstrate that also hg. Q is old in Europe".
I said this because an hg. Q (probably linked to the Jewish ones) has been recently published on the paper of Sarno et al. I spoke about in another thread.

Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:21 am
Шад wrote:Pellegrini is not Q1b (like Jewish Q-L245)
He is (probably) Q-L933 (Q1a).
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/neare ... ors/64042/


Pellegrini has been tested Q-CTS9055 from Geno 2.0, but, if we compare him to this person from Tajikistan, we can see how far they are:
Pellegrini:
Ysearch YNXH9
13 25 13 10 14-17 12 12 12 13 13 30

M346 > L940 > F850 > CTS9055 | Q-CTS9055
246810 Isfara Tajik Tajikistan Q-CTS9055
12 23 14 10 13-15 12 12 11 12 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 23 15 20 31 14-16-17-18 10 11 22-22 17 15 13 16 35-36 13 11 11 8 17-17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 20-22 19 11 12 12 16 8 12 25 20 14 14 11 13 11 11 12 12
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Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:22 am
pellegrini, pelligrin, pellizzer, Pellizari, Pelli all mean furrier ( skinner of animals)

The Q arrived in the adriatic islands of Hvar and other islands in the bronze-age............these people most likely went to venice areas as Venice ruled these areas for over 700 years.

you know there is a paper on this islands
User avatar
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:37 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:30 am
Gioiello wrote:
Шад wrote:Pellegrini is not Q1b (like Jewish Q-L245)
He is (probably) Q-L933 (Q1a).
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/neare ... ors/64042/


Pellegrini has been tested Q-CTS9055 from Geno 2.0, but, if we compare him to this person from Tajikistan, we can see how far they are:
Pellegrini:
Ysearch YNXH9
13 25 13 10 14-17 12 12 12 13 13 30

M346 > L940 > F850 > CTS9055 | Q-CTS9055
246810 Isfara Tajik Tajikistan Q-CTS9055
12 23 14 10 13-15 12 12 11 12 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 23 15 20 31 14-16-17-18 10 11 22-22 17 15 13 16 35-36 13 11 11 8 17-17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 20-22 19 11 12 12 16 8 12 25 20 14 14 11 13 11 11 12 12


There are matches in Europe:
21648 Manary France Q-L56
13 25 13 10 13-17 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 13-16-17-17 10 11 19-22 15 15 21 18 32-38 12 11 11 8 15-17 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22-24 15 11 12 12 17 8 12 22 21 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 12
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Me ... n=yresults
yDNA: Q1b1a (L245+ L315- L272-)
mtDNA: J1c2*
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ex oriente lux

Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:30 am
stoeni wrote:pellegrini, pelligrin, pellizzer, Pellizari, Pelli all mean furrier ( skinner of animals)

The Q arrived in the adriatic islands of Hvar and other islands in the bronze-age............these people most likely went to venice areas as Venice ruled these areas for over 700 years.

you know there is a paper on this islands


1) Surname "Pellegrini" comes from "pellegrino", Latin peregrinus, from peragro "to pass through a field", and has nothing to do with pellis "leather". I understand that you would compete with me and against my theories, but you should have at least a little part of my knowledge, what evidently you haven't, and you cannot do what others do on other fora, i.e. to ban me.
2) Pellegrini's paternal ancestry is from Barga, Tuscan Apennines: nothing to do with Venice, at least in these last centuries, and it is a very conservative zone, where hg. R1b is also 95% or at least 75% of all the Y. The person (a relative of his) who manages his DNA is an mt R0a2k I am studying from years and comes from the Monti Pisani: in the past I have supported that R0a'b is for me from the Italian Refugium more than from the Arabian peninsula.
3) Of course I think having much to learn from Shad (who is one of the best scholars of hg. Q) and from Semargl's site: also in this case Shad was right, and I would prefer that your conclusions were he to do, but it seems that the link he shows is with an European Q. I'll study the matter and I'll write something to him.
4) Pellegrini's autosomal is Mediterranean 45%, Northern European 38%, Southwest Asian 17%, Neanderthal 3,0%, Denisovan 2,2%, even though you probably know that I don't like NG's ideology neither its sponsors. Pellegrini's mt is U4b1b1.

Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:53 pm
N126923 Pelegrin [Pellegrini] and 246810 from Isfara clan are classified Q-CTS9055. They differ in their Geno 2.0 for the mutations:
246810: CTS6255+
N126923: F2705+, F3011+, F749+, F850+
Not having their raw data I can not say more, but F850/L941 is on the same plane of L933 and L938. If 246810 were negative, we should break this sequence and CTS9055 wouldn't be their final SNP.
Certainly that at the STRs level they are separated not only from thousands of years but from much more.
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Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:13 pm
Gioiello wrote:
stoeni wrote:pellegrini, pelligrin, pellizzer, Pellizari, Pelli all mean furrier ( skinner of animals)

The Q arrived in the adriatic islands of Hvar and other islands in the bronze-age............these people most likely went to venice areas as Venice ruled these areas for over 700 years.

you know there is a paper on this islands


1) Surname "Pellegrini" comes from "pellegrino", Latin peregrinus, from peragro "to pass through a field", and has nothing to do with pellis "leather". I understand that you would compete with me and against my theories, but you should have at least a little part of my knowledge, what evidently you haven't, and you cannot do what others do on other fora, i.e. to ban me.
2) Pellegrini's paternal ancestry is from Barga, Tuscan Apennines: nothing to do with Venice, at least in these last centuries, and it is a very conservative zone, where hg. R1b is also 95% or at least 75% of all the Y. The person (a relative of his) who manages his DNA is an mt R0a2k I am studying from years and comes from the Monti Pisani: in the past I have supported that R0a'b is for me from the Italian Refugium more than from the Arabian peninsula.
3) Of course I think having much to learn from Shad (who is one of the best scholars of hg. Q) and from Semargl's site: also in this case Shad was right, and I would prefer that your conclusions were he to do, but it seems that the link he shows is with an European Q. I'll study the matter and I'll write something to him.
4) Pellegrini's autosomal is Mediterranean 45%, Northern European 38%, Southwest Asian 17%, Neanderthal 3,0%, Denisovan 2,2%, even though you probably know that I don't like NG's ideology neither its sponsors. Pellegrini's mt is U4b1b1.



to be clear, I do not compete against anyone ( and never will ) and I do not know why you get banned from sites............it is not my issue.
I note what I read, what I was sent by scholars and also intelligent people like yourself.

I noted Pellizzer ( i have many in my ancestry ) because a geneticist stated to me the surnames I gave you means one who deals in skins
Pellizzer : cognome tipico veneto che deriva da soprannomi legati al vocabolo dialettale peliza (pelliccia), stando così probabilmente ad indicare che i capostipiti facessero di mestiere i pellicciai o appartenessero comunque alla corporazione o confraternita dei pellicciai, cioè di coloro che conciavano le pelli e, o commerciavano in cuoio e pellami, o fabbricavano abiti o manti di pelliccia.

pellegrino is native to west lombardia and Piedmonte and was first noted in central italy- Rome in ~1850 ............It could have been much earlier in Massa, liguria and Lucca/Pisa before this date

Posts: 2220
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:53 pm
Of course Pellizzer, Pelliccioli, Pellai etc. are linked to "pelle" (leather), but not Pellegrino/Pellegrini etc. This was the mistake, and a genetic analysis cannot be based upon etymology, much more if wrong.
I apologize for my bad manners, but I don't like approximations. The reasons of my banishment are in what I say.
We'll see soon who is right and who is wrong.
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