Personal bet about Mt hg ages

Any discussions regarding mt-DNA markers, results or questions.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:05 am
My approach is based on scientifict facts and readings. I dont't pretend to be scientific and original because theses ideas are more and more in the air. It is useful to do a rough calculation to have an insight of the dates of the development of the phylogenic tree for mitochondrial haplogroupss

There are discussions about the date of "Out Of Africa of AMH (Anatomically Modern Human). The most commonly accepted is 60.000BP, although skeletons of AMH in Palestine are dated long before this data (110.000-85.000BP) and several archeological findings showed strong presence of African-Nubian culture in Arabia about 100.000BC.

Other argument not politically correct, 60.000BC is a lot too recent to explain present raciations. In more a recent arrival is strange when the first arrivals in the very cold Europe took place between 10.000 and 20.000 years later n a time with severe cold peaks of temperature. In fact, 60.000BC is an "ad-hoc" date because the proved arrival of first humans in Sahul (continent which contained Australia, New Guinea, East Indonesia and a lot of other islands and now-immmerged lands) doesn't accept a later date.

In more, when we look at temperature curve and rainfall records determined by scientific , there have been only 2 favourable periods to allow primitive hunter-gatherers to travel in the Sahara and Arabia easily in the last 250.000 years:
1) The beginning of Holocene (10.000-6.000BP) : too recent
2) The beginning of the previous interglacial stade, the Eemian (130.000-120.000BP), specially the very warm period between 128.000BP and 124.000BP
My first bet was the real "Out Of Africa" took place in the first phase of Eemian and I would suppose the Mt haplogroup of the migrants was born in 130.000BP.

What was this haplogroup: There are several candidates :
- both M and N
- L3
- L3'4
- L3'4'6 because it is possible that L3, L4 and L6 were born in the moutains of South Arabia (Yemen, Dhofar, Asir, ...) and later they came back into Africa, but there are always populations carriers of L3,L4 and L6 in Yemen and in South Arabia. In more, L6 remained mainly present in Yemen with a very probable origin.
L2'3'4'6 is impossible because L2 is too African to allow to come from Arabian Peninsula or Near East.

I bet for L3'4'6 for the reasons explained above and also because it is more adapted to a development pf the phylo tree compatible with future events after 125.000BP

To be coherent with the mean number of migrations in the branches of the tree and by forgetting the aleatory occurences of the mutations for easier calculations, I took for the hunter-gatherers one evolutionary ( surviving) mutation every 3.666 years (High Variability Region+Coding Region) and every 5.000 years for Coding Region by taking a mean number of mutations from Mitochondrial Eve to now of 61,5 mutations for all mt dna and 44 for the coding part. Of course the real numbers of mutation in each branch is depending of the aleatory occurence of the mutations, the real (pedigree) mean mutation rate; the evolutionary (surviving) mutation rate is depending of the fluctuations of populations due to the life conditions of divers hunter-gatherer populations thru the ages and very diverse climatic, economic and epidemiologic environments for hunter-gatherers.

Haplogroup__Mt mutations (CR mutations)__Sum of mutations since Eve__Date Mt mutation__Date CR mutations

Eve mitochondrial_______________________________________________225.000______________220.000
L1-6_____________8(5)___________________8(5)__________________196.000______________195.000
L1_______________6____________________14(11)_________________174.000______________165.000
L2-6_____________5(4)__________________13(9)__________________172.000______________175.000
L5______________7(4)___________________20(13)_________________152.000_____________155.000
L2’3’4’6_________11(7)__________________24(16)_________________137.000______________140.000
L2_____________10(5)__________________34(21)__________________100.000______________115.000
Interglaciaire Eémien (phase chaude et humide
5e)__130.000_à_116.000,_période_la plus chaude 129.000-126.000
L3’4’6__________2(2)___________________26(18)__________________130.000______________130.000
L6_____________23(19)_________________49(37)___________________46.000_______________35.000
L6a_____________2(0)__________________51(37)___________________38.000_______________35.000__Yémen_et_Egypte
L6b_____________1(1)__________________50(38)___________________42.000_______________30.000__Yémen_et_Ethiopie
Phase plus froide 5d__116.000 à 106.000
L3’4____________5(3)___________________31(21)_________________112.000______________115.000
L4_____________3(1)___________________34(22)_________________100.000______________110.000
L4a____________10(8)__________________44(30)__________________64.000_______________70.000
L4b_____________2(2)__________________36(24)__________________93.000______________100.000
L4b1___________27(18)_________________63(42)______________________0________________10.000__ Yémen
L4b2___________11(6)__________________47(30)__________________53.000_______________70.000__Afrique_de_l'Est
Phase instable 5c___ 106.000 à 98.000
L3_____________3(2)___________________34(23)_________________100.000______________105.000
L3a____________3(2)___________________37(25)__________________90.000_______________95.000__Ethiopie,_Afrique_de_l'Est
L3b__________13(10)___________________47(33)__________________53.000_______________55.000__Cameroun,_Gabon
L3c'd'j
L3c__________18(13)___________________52(36)__________________35.000_______________40.000__Afrique_de_l'Est,_Juifs_éthiopiens et yéménites
L3d____________8(6)___________________42(29)__________________71.000_______________65.000__Afrique_du Centre-Ouest, Sahel, Bassin Tchad, Afrique de l'est
L3j___Afrique de l'eEst, Soudan
L3e'i'k'x
L3e____________4(3)___________________38(26)__________________86.000_______________90.000__Nigeria,_Bantous
L3i____________3(2)___________________37(25)__________________90.000_______________95.000__Ethiopie,_Afrique_de_l'Est,_Péninsule arabique
L3k___________12(8)___________________46(31)__________________57.000_______________75.000__Afrique_du_Nord
L3x____________9(7)___________________43(30)__________________68.000_______________70.000__Yémen,_Ethiopie_(Oromos),_Somalis,_Péninsule arabique, Egypte, Algérie

L3h____________2(2)___________________36(25)__________________93.000_______________95.000__Ethiopie,_Afrique_de_l'Est

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Macrohaplogroupe M
M_____________4(3)____________________38(26)_________________86.000_______________90.000

Macrohaplogroupe N
N_____________5(5)____________________39(28)__________________82.000______________80.000


Macrohaplogroup M (born from L3 after 4 mutations including 3 coding ones ) exploded in a big star-like structure due to the rapid expansion in South Asia until South China and Sunda, and maybe Sahul during the warm phase GI 21 also called Odderade oscillation from 84.000BP to 74.000BP before the volcanic Toda explosion about 73.000BP and the first pleniglacial phases of intense colds from 74.000 to 59.000BP with some warmer interrutions in the beginning of the pleniglacial (72.000BP and 68.000BP).

There are fifty surviving branches directly issued of M and several hundred surviving sub-branches born before the hardest phases of the Pleniglacial-I.

Macrohaplogroup N (born from L3 after 5 coding mutations) developped later, it was hampered by the previous expansion of M carriers and its star-like structure is weaker: fifteen branches and some dozen sub-branches are survived but the R branch of N knew a big success later, maybe after Toda explosion, in the warmer oscillations of the beginning of the Pleniglacial and in the Interpleniglacial from 59.000BP to 30.000BP.

Macrohaplogroupe R
R_____________2(1)____________________41(29)____________________75.000______________75.000

In the following posts, I will give date estimations in the 3 big macrohaplogroups M, N and R.

I think the First Pleniglacial (74.000 to 59.000BP) was the most important phase of raciations and diversifications of the AMH. The cold phases of Interpleniglacial (59.000-30.000BP) and the Second Pleniglacial (30.000-11.600BP) prolonged the raciation work begun by the first Pleniglaciation, but probably the higher cultural level of the AMH (Upper Paleolithic) during the second Pleniglacial prevented the harsh conditions from playing a role equal to the first Pleniglacial.
Last edited by palamede on Wed May 08, 2013 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:31 pm
Macrohaplogroupe M

M_____________4(3)____________________38(26)_________________86.000_______________90.000
M1'20'51_______1(1)
M1___________10(5)____________________48(31)_________________50.000_______________65.000__Sud-Ouest_Asie,_Afrique_du_Nord
M20__________21(15)___________________59(41)__________________9.000_______________15.000__Sud_de_la_Chine
M51___________9(6)____________________47(32)_________________53.000_______________60.000__Laos_et_voisinage
M2____________5(3)____________________43(29)_________________68.000_______________75.000__Inde_surtout_sud-est_(M2b)_et_Bengla-Desh (M2a), 20% des Indiens

M3_____________2(2)____________________40(28)_________________79.000_______________80.000__Inde,_surtout_ouest_et_nord

M4''67__________1(1) 13 haplogroupes en Asie du sud, surtout centre de l'Inde :
M4____________7(3)____________________45(29)_________________60.000_______________75.000
M65___________3(2)____________________41(28)_________________75.000_______________80.000
M67__________15(11)___________________53(37)_________________31.000_______________35.000
M18___________5(3)____________________43(29)_________________68.000_______________75.000
M38___________5(4)____________________43(30)_________________68.000_______________70.000
M30___________3(2)____________________41(28)_________________75.000_______________80.000
M37___________2(2)____________________40(28)_________________79.000_______________80.000
M43___________4(4)____________________42(30)_________________71.000_______________70.000
M45___________4(2)____________________42(28)_________________71.000_______________80.000
M63__________12(8)____________________50(34)_________________42.000_______________50.000
M64__________11(8)____________________49(34)_________________46.000_______________50.000
M66___________7(5)____________________45(31)_________________60.000_______________65.000

M5____________2(1)____________________40(27)_________________79.000_______________85.000__Asie_du_Sud,_surtout_centre de l'Inde
M6____________6(4)____________________44(30)_________________64.000_______________70.000__Asie_du_Sud,_surtout_centre-est Inde et Cachemire
M7____________2(2)____________________40(28)_________________79.000_______________80.000__Asie_de_l'Est,_surtout_Japon

M8____________5(4)_____________________43(30)_________________68.000_______________70.000__Asie_de_l'Est,_surtout_Kamchatka et Nord-Est de l'Inde
C____________5(4)+7(5)=12(9)____________50(35)_________________42.000_______________45.000__Asie_de_l'Est,_surtout_Sibérie
C1b_________12(9)+3(0)=15(9)____________53(35)_________________31.000_______________45.000_____Amérindien_majeur
C1c_________12(9)+2(2)=14(11)___________52(37)_________________35.000_______________35.000_____Amérindien_majeur
C1d_________12(9)+3(0)=1(0)_____________51(35)_________________38.000_______________45.000_____Amérindien_majeur
C4c_________12(9)+6(6)=18(15)___________56(41)_________________20.000_______________15.000_____Amérindien_mineur
Z____________5(4)+6(4)=11(8)____________49(34)_________________46.000_______________50.000__Asie_du_Nord,_surtout_Corée et nord de la Chine, présent en Europe du nord-est

M9____________2(1)____________________40(27)_________________79.000_______________85.000__Asie_de_l'Est_et_Centrale,surtout Tibet
E____________2(1)+5(4)=7(5)_____________45(31)_________________60.000_______________65.000__Asie_du_Sud-Est_maritime, surtout Taiwan et Bornéo

M10__________10(8)____________________48(34)_________________50.000_______________50.000__Asie_de_l'Est_et_Nord-Est_de l'Inde, peu important
M11___________9(6)____________________47(32)_________________53.000_______________60.000__Tibet_et_Chine,_peu important

M12'G_________1(1)
M12___________9(7)____________________47(33)_________________53.000_______________55.000__Asie_de_l'Est,_surtout_Japon,_peu important
G_____________5(4)____________________43(30)_________________68.000_______________70.000__Japon_et_Kamchatka

M13'46'61______2(1)
M13___________4(3)____________________42(29)_________________71.000_______________75.000__Tibet
M46__________18(12)___________________56(38)_________________20.000_______________30.000__Asie_de_l'Est
M61__________14(11)___________________52(37)_________________35.000_______________35.000__Du_Laos_au_nord-est_de l'Inde

M14___________3(2)____________________41(28)_________________75.000_______________80.000__Australie
M15__________13(7)____________________51(33)_________________38.000_______________55.000__Australie

M19'53_________1(1)
M19__________14(10)___________________52(36)_________________35.000_______________40.000__Palawan(Philippines)
M53__________11(5)____________________49(31)_________________46.000_______________65.000__Est_et_Centre_de_l'Inde

M21___________3(3)____________________41(29)_________________75.000_______________75.000__Asie_du_Sud-Est_et_Bengla-Desh, tribus Semang, peu important
M22___________3(3)____________________41(29)_________________75.000_______________75.000__Asie_du_Sud:Aborigènes_de_Malaisie, Vietnam et Sud de la Chine

M23'75_________1(1)
M23__________18(11)___________________56(37)_________________20.000_______________35.000__Laos_et_Madagascar
M75__________12(8)____________________50(34)_________________42.000_______________50.000__Asie_du_Sud-Est

M24'41_________1(1)
M24__________16(8)____________________54(34)_________________27.000_______________50.000__Palawan(Philippines)
M41___________9(6)____________________47(32)_________________53.000_______________60.000__Inde_Centrale_surtout_Andhra_Pradesh

M25___________2(1)____________________40(28)_________________80.000_______________80.000__Est_et_Centre_de_l'Inde
M26__________15(11)___________________53(37)_________________31.000_______________35.000__Sumatra
M27___________3(3)____________________41(29)_________________75.000_______________75.000__Mélanésie
M28__________10(5)____________________48(31)_________________50.000_______________65.000__Mélanésie

M29'Q_________2(1)
M29__________13(6)____________________51(32)_________________38.000_______________60.000__Mélanésie
Q_____________8(5)____________________46(31)_________________57.000_______________65.000__Mélanésie_et_Aborigènes_d'Australie

M31___________4(4)____________________42(30)_________________71.000_______________70.000
M31a__________3(2)____________________45(32)_________________60.000_______________60.000
M31a1_________9(7)____________________54(39)_________________27.000_______________25.000__Iles_Andaman(Onge)
M31a2________10(8)____________________55(40)_________________24.000_______________20.000__Orissa
M31b__________5(2)____________________47(32)_________________53.000_______________60.000__Tibet

M32'56________1(1)
M32___________3(1)____________________41(27)_________________75.000_______________85.000
M32a__________9(3)____________________50(30)_________________42.000_______________70.000__Iles_Andaman
M32c_________18(11)___________________59(38)__________________9.000_______________30.000__Madagascar
M56___________4(2)____________________42(29)_________________71.000_______________75.000__Inde,_mineur

M33___________1(1)____________________39(27)_________________82.000_______________85.000__Centre_Inde_et Sud Chine

M34'57_________1(1)
M34___________6(4)____________________44(30)_________________64.000_______________70.000__Centre_Inde
M57___________5(4)____________________43(30)_________________68.000_______________70.000__Centre__Inde, ouest de M34

M35___________1(1)____________________39(27)_________________82.000_______________85.000__Centre_Inde
M36___________3(2)____________________41(29)_________________75.000_______________75.000__Centre_Inde,_mineur

M39'70_________1(1)
M39___________7(2)____________________45(28)_________________68.000_______________80.000__Centre_Inde
M70__________10(5)____________________48(31)_________________50.000_______________65.000__Sud_Chine

M40'62_________1(1)
M40___________4(3)____________________42(29)_________________71.000_______________75.000__Centre_et Est Inde
M62__________12(10)___________________50(36)_________________42.000_______________40.000__Est_Asie__M62b:Tibet

M42'74_________1(1)
M42___________2(2)____________________40(28)_________________79.000_______________80.000__Australie
M74___________4(3)____________________42(29)_________________71.000_______________75.000__Sud_Chine

M44___________3(1)____________________41(27)_________________75.000_______________85.000__Centre_Inde
M47___________5(0)____________________43(26)_________________68.000_______________90.000__Iles_Sud-Est Asie
M48___________6(2)____________________44(28)_________________64.000_______________80.000__Nord-Est_Inde
M49___________2(1)____________________40(27)_________________79.000_______________85.000__Inde,_surtout Est et Nord-Est
M50___________4(3)____________________42(29)_________________71.000_______________75.000__Nord-Est_Inde, Sud-Est Asie
M52'58_________2(2)
M52___________5(4)____________________43(30)_________________71.000_______________70.000__Inde
M58__________17(9)____________________55(35)_________________24.000_______________45.000__Nord-Est_Inde

M60___________2(2)____________________40(28)_________________79.000_______________80.000__Nord-Est_Inde
M71___________3(2)____________________41(28)_________________75.000_______________80.000__Laos,_Sud Chine, iles Sud-Est Asie
M72___________6(4)____________________44(30)_________________64.000_______________70.000__Sud-Est_Asie
M73'79_________2(1)
M73___________7(6)____________________45(32)_________________60.000_______________60.000__Philippines_and South-East Asia
M79__________16(7)____________________54(33)_________________27.000_______________55.000__South_China

M76___________5(4)____________________43(30)_________________68.000_______________70.000__South_China
M77__________15(9)____________________53(35)_________________31.000_______________45.000__Thaïlandia
M80'D_________1(1)
M80__________18(14)___________________56(40)_________________20.000_______________20.000__Palawan
D_____________3(2)____________________41(28)_________________75.000_______________80.000__East_Asia and North-East_India
D1____________5(4)____________________46(32)_________________56.000_______________60.000__Amérindians_major
D2____________9(7)____________________50(35)_________________42.000_______________45.000__Amérindians_minor
D4____________3(3)____________________44(31)_________________64.000_______________65.000__
D4b_"D3"______1(1)____________________45(32)_________________60.000_______________60.000__Amérindians_minor
D4h3__________7(4)____________________51(35)_________________39.000_______________45.000__Amérindians_minor
Last edited by palamede on Thu May 09, 2013 1:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:51 pm
Macrohaplogroupe N

N_____________5(5)____________________39(28)__________________82.000______________80.000

N1'5
N1____________3(3)____________________42(31)__________________71.000______________65.000__West_Eurasia
N1a - Arabian Peninsula, Tanzania, Kenya, Ethiopia and Egypt. Found also in_Central Asia and Southern Siberia.
N1b - found in Middle East, Egypt, Caucasus and Europe
N1a3 "N1c" - Northern Saudi Arabia, Turkey
N1a2 "N1d" - India
N1a1b "N1e'I'"
N1a1b1 "N1e" - Buryats
I_________3(3)+16(9)___________________58(40)__________________13.000______________20.000__West_Eurasia and South Asia.
N5____________8(6)____________________47(34)__________________53.000______________50.000__Inde

N2_____________5(4)___________________44(32)__________________64.000______________60.000
N2a - Ouest Europe
W________5(4)+11(7)___________________55(39)__________________24.000______________25.000__Western_Eurasia and South Asia

N3____________20(12)__________________59(40)___________________9.000______________20.000
N8____________22(13)__________________61(41)___________________2.000______________15.000

N9__________-__1(1)___________________40(29)__________________79.000______________75.000__Far_East
N9a - East Asia, Southeast Asia and Central Asia.
N9b - found in Japan.
Y_________1(1)+7(4)____________________47(33)__________________53.000______________55.000__found especially among Nivkhs, Ainus, and the population of Nias Island, with a moderate_frequency among Koreans, Mongols, Tungusic peoples, Koryaks, Itelmens, Chinese, Japanese,_Tajiks, Island Southeast Asians (including Taiwanese arborigens), and some_Turkic peoples

N10___________4(2)____________________43(30)__________________68.000______________70.000
N11___________1(1)____________________40(29)__________________79.000______________75.000
N13__________13(6)____________________52(34)__________________35.000______________50.000__Australia
N14__________10(10)___________________49(38)__________________46.000______________30.000__Australia
N21___________8(5)____________________47(33)__________________53.000______________55.000__ethnic_Malays from Malaysia and Indonesia
N22___________7(4)____________________46(32)__________________57.000______________60.000__South-East_Asie
A_____________8(5)____________________47(33)__________________53.000______________55.000__Central_and East Asia.
A2________8(5)+7(4)____________________54(37)__________________27.000______________35.000__Amérindians-major

O__(or_N12)____3(2)____________________42(30)__________________71.000______________70.000__Australia_and Flores, Indonesia.
S_____________1(1)____________________40(29)__________________79.000______________75.000__Australia
X_____________6(4)____________________45(32)__________________60.000______________60.000__Western_Eurasia, but also present in North America.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Macrohaplogroupe R

R_____________2(1)____________________41(29)____________________75.000______________75.000

R0____________2(1)____________________43(30)____________________68.000______________70.000_ HV, H et _V are issued from R0.
R1___________17(15)___________________58(44)____________________13.000__________________0__ NW Caucasus, Kurds

R2'JT__________1(1)
R2_______1(1)+10(8)___________________52(38)____________________35.000______________30.000__Baluchistan
JT________1(1)+3(2)____________________45(32)____________________60.000______________60.000
J_____________6(3)____________________51(35)____________________38.000______________45.000__Near East, Europe
T____________10(9)____________________55(41)____________________24.000______________15.000__Caspian, Europe

R3___________14(10)___________________55(39)____________________24.000______________25.000__Armenia
R5____________5(3)____________________46(32)____________________57.000______________60.000__Indian Peninsula
R6____________4(1)____________________45(30)____________________60.000______________70.000__Indian Peninsula (Austro-Asiatics)
R7____________3(1)____________________44(30)____________________64.000______________70.000__Indian Peninsula
R8____________6(5)____________________49(34)____________________46.000______________50.000__East India
R9____________3(2)____________________44(31)____________________53.000______________55.000__East Asia

R11'B6_________2(1)____________________43(30)____________________68.000______________70.000
R11_________2(1)+10(7)_________________53(37)____________________31.000______________35.000__China
B6__________2(1)+4(3)__________________47(33)____________________53.000______________55.000
B4’5__________3(2)____________________44(31)_____________________64.000______________65.000
B4________3(2)+1(0)___________________45(31)_____________________61.000______________65.000__East Asia, Oceania, Amerindians
Tai_Yuan(Beijing)_4(3)___________________49(34)_____________________46.000______________50.000__greater than calibrated C14 estimation circa 40.000BP . Uncalibrated C14 date 34.430+-510 BP.
B2________3(2)+11(9)___________________55(40)____________________24.000______________20.000 __Amerindians- Major

R12'21________3(2)
R12__________?(17)______________________?(46)______________________?_____________________0__ Australia
R21_________20(13)_____________________61(42)_____________________2.000______________10.000__ Negritos of Malaysia

Some weak dates are probably due to the fact that the haplogroup was only tested in rare isolate individus, therefore without haplotypic diversity and without branch length of a possible, but yet unknown intermediate node defining the haplogroup.

R14_________22(13)_____________________63(42)_________________________0______________10.000__Papouasia-New Guinea and East Indonesia
R22_________10(5)______________________51(34)_____________________38.000______________50.000__East Indonesia
R23_________18(14)_____________________59(43)______________________9.000_______________5.000__Small clade : Bali and Sumba
R30__________2(1)______________________43(30)_____________________68.000______________70.000__ Indian Peninsula
R31__________2(1)______________________43(30)_____________________68.000______________70.000__ Indian Peninsula

P____________1(1)______________________42(30)_____________________71.000______________70.000__Sahul
P1___________6(2)______________________48(32)_____________________50.000______________60.000__Philippines, East Indonesia
P2___________8(6)______________________50(36)_____________________43.000______________40.000__Melanesia, Papouasia-New Guinea
P3___________7(4)______________________49(34)_____________________46.000______________50.000__Australia and Melanesia
P4___________3(3)______________________45(33)_____________________60.000______________55.000__Australia and Melanesia
P9__________10(7)______________________52(37)_____________________35.000______________35.000__ Australia
P10_________28(21)_____________________70(51)__________________________0__________________0__ Philippines (clade birth in Neolithic or one tested individu ?)

U_____________3(3)____________________44(32)____________________64.000______________60.000__ West and South Asia, Europa, North Africa(U6)
U1____________7(5)____________________51(37)____________________38.000______________35.000__Middle East, Svanetia in Caucasus
U5____________5(3)____________________49(35)____________________46.000______________45.000__Europa
U5a___________2(1)____________________51(36)____________________38.000______________40.000__North and East Europe
U5b___________3(2)____________________52(37)____________________35.000______________35.000__Western Europe (come with Gravettian culture about 33-31.000BC ?)
U6____________2(1)____________________46(33)____________________57.000______________55.000__North-West Africa, Iberian Peninsula, Canary Islands
U2'3'4'7'8'9____1(1)_____________________45(33)____________________60.000______________55.000
U2___________1(0)_____________________46(33)____________________57.000______________55.000__South Asia mainly, Middle East, Central Asia, rare in Europe
U3___________5(3)_____________________50(36)____________________43.000______________40.000__Middle East, Svanetia in Caucasus
U4'9__________3(1)_____________________53(37)____________________31.000______________35.000
U4___________6(5)_____________________59(42)_____________________9.000______________10.000__Eastern Europe, Svanetia in Caucasus
U9___________4(4)_____________________57(41)____________________17.000______________15.000__Ethiopia and Yemen, Makrani in Pakistan
U7___________11(8)____________________56(41)____________________20.000______________15.000__North-West of Indian Peninsula
U8___________1(1)_____________________46(34)____________________57.000______________50.000
U8a__________6(5)_____________________52(39)____________________35.000______________25.000__Basques
U8b'K________3(3)______________________49(37)____________________46.000______________35.000
U8b__________3(0)_____________________53(37)____________________31.000______________35.000__Italy
K____________5(3)_____________________54(40)____________________27.000______________20.000__Europa, Near East

HV____________1(1)____________________44(31)_____________________64.000______________65.000__ Near and Middle East, Europe. HV0 to HV10.
V_____________4(2)____________________48(33)_____________________50.000______________55.000__Europa
H_____________2(2)____________________46(33)_____________________57.000______________55.000__Europa, North-West Africa, Near and Middle East
Important star-like structure with a lot of surviving branches plus some ones found in anciant dna. Seems to be in correspondance with the first vagues populating Europe between 48.000BP and 37.000BP, specially during large warmer oscillations of Hengelo (GI 13) around 45.000-43.000BP and Cottes (GI 8) around 39.000-37.000BP.
H1____________1(1)____________________47(34)_____________________53.000______________50.000__Europe, North-West Africa, Near East
Most important branch of H , also s its own large tree structure.
H2a2a1________6(5)____________________52(38)_____________________35.000______________30.000 My haplogroup(rCRS) . North Europa ?

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:22 am
Yesterday, Dieneskes published the contents of a conference in
http://dienekes.blogspot.fr/2013/09/ash ... racts.html

The last subject (I put some sentences in big police) is

he Saudi Arabian Genome Reveals a Two Step Out-of-Africa Migration.
J. J. Farrell et al.
Here we present the first high-coverage whole genome sequences from a Middle Eastern population consisting of 14 Eastern Province Saudi Arabians. Genomes from this region are of interest to further answer questions regarding “Out-of-Africa” human migration. Applying a pairwise sequentially Markovian coalescent model (PSMC), we inferred the history of population sizes between 10,000 years and 1,000,000 years before present (YBP) for the Saudi genomes and an additional 11 high-coverage whole genome sequences from Africa, Asia and Europe.
The model estimated the initial separation from Africans at approximately 110,000 YBP. This intermediate population then underwent a long period of decreasing population size culminating in a bottleneck 50,000 YBP followed by an expansion into Asia and Europe. The split and subsequent bottleneck were thus two distinct events separated by a long intermediate period of genetic drift in the Middle East. The two most frequent mitochondria haplogroups (30% each) were the Middle Eastern U7a and the African L. The presence of the L haplogroup common in Africa was unexpected given the clustering of the Saudis with Europeans in the phylogenetic tree and suggests some recent African admixture. To examine this further, we performed formal tests for a history of admixture and found no evidence of African admixture in the Saudi after the split. Taken together, these analyses suggest that the L3 haplogroup found in the Saudi were present before the bottleneck 50,000 YBP. Given the TMRCA estimates for the L3 haplogroup of approximately 70,000 YBP and the timing of the Out-of-Africa split, these analyses suggest that L3 haplogroup arose in the Middle East with a subsequent back migration and expansion into Africa over the Horn-of-Africa during the lower sea levels found during the glacial period bottleneck.
These results are consistent with the hypothesis that modern humans populated the Middle East before a split 110,000 YBP, underwent genetic drift for 60,000 years before expanding to Asia and Europe as well as back-migration into Africa. Examination of genetic variants discovered by Saudi whole genome sequencing in ancestral African populations and European/Asian populations will contribute to the understanding human migration patterns and the origin of genetic variation in modern humans.


This gives the following synopsis :__"Consensus"________________Paper______________________My bet

"Out of Africa"__BP______________50-70,000_____________about 110,000_______________130,000-125,000
Birth of L3______BP______________60_70,000_____________about 70,000________________110,000-100,000
Bottleneck______BP______________not evoked__________before expansion _50,000________pleniglacial 73,000-60,000 after a first expansion 86,000-74,000
"Out of Arabia"__BP______________not evoked_____________about _50,000________________about 85,000
Latence duration in Arabia__________weak_________________about_60,000 years___________40-45,000 years
Expansion in Eurasia__BP_________40-65,000_____________after 50,000__________________2 waves : to south Asia in India, Indonesia and South China (and maybe Sahul) 86,000-74,000 and later, back to South_West Asia and to North Eurasia : Central Asia, Europe, North China, Siberia, Australia, New Guinea, America 60,000-30,000 before the second pleniglacial (30,000-15,000) and new continuous demographic expansion after 15,000bp.
"L3 back to Africa"_______________not evoked______second pleniglacial after 30,000______After 100,000BP with y-hg E, maybe several waves corresponding to the Y-hgs E2, E1a, E1b1a, E1b1b.


Notice, the paper estimates the "initial separation from Africans at approximately 110,000 YBP" and my bet is almost in agreement with this date, except the separation is not with the whole Africans but with the very notable part of Africans represented by the mt-hgs L3 (one third of South-Saharians), L4 and L6 (the separation with mt-hg L2, an other third of sub-Saharians was about 130-140,000 in Soudan/Ethiopia) and by the Y-hg E (three quarters of all the Africans).


Correct me if my understanding of the "consensus" and of the abstract of the paper is not right.

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MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:09 am
If the Mt lines came out of Africa 130000 ybp then the Y-lines must have came also at that time which changes the TMRCAs of all the Y groups, isnt that right?.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
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YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
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H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:17 am
dartraighe wrote:If the Mt lines came out of Africa 130000 ybp then the Y-lines must have came also at that time which changes the TMRCAs of all the Y groups, isnt that right?.


For this question, I give MY answer in the second part of
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=1317

Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm
I cant believe that any scientist would say that all R1b today are descended from one man 4000 ybp. Where was this one man born? There must be at least 300,000,000 R1b men in the world in multiple haplogroups. I have seen a post today stating that there are 1000 SNPs under U106 alone.

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
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H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:52 am
dartraighe wrote:I cant believe that any scientist would say that all R1b today are descended from one man 4000 ybp. Where was this one man born? There must be at least 300,000,000 R1b men in the world in multiple haplogroups. I have seen a post today stating that there are 1000 SNPs under U106 alone.


Soon, we will know with the depth average of SNPs for every people.

"1000SNPS" is without meaning if we don't know the mean number of mutations below U106 for every male.

When we look at the depth of mutation, it need to make attention to the tested part of Y with the coverage for this part .
volut
Ir will remain the same problem as in the mitochondrial mutations : what is the evolutionary mutation rate average ?
Different from the pedigree rate which gives the constant real rate at the birth, the evolutionary rate gives the surviving rate of the mutations through the time, this rate was not probably constant according to the centuries.

Posts: 2227
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:34 pm
I was searching the phylotree for the mutations from my sons Geno2 results and my son and I have the same mutation in the haplogroup LOa. This seems to be the starting point for our lines. He is T and I am U. I have 66 mutations and he 55, so 55 x 3,500 = 192,500 for LOa. Would that be close to the TMRCA?
If that is a similar age for Y Adam, I cant understand how the C haplogroup made it out of Africa 60,000 years ago.
Why is there a gap of 132,000 years between A and C?

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:12 pm
dartraighe wrote:I was searching the phylotree for the mutations from my sons Geno2 results and my son and I have the same mutation in the haplogroup LOa. This seems to be the starting point for our lines. He is T and I am U. I have 66 mutations and he 55, so 55 x 3,500 = 192,500 for LOa. Would that be close to the TMRCA?
If that is a similar age for Y Adam, I cant understand how the C haplogroup made it out of Africa 60,000 years ago.
Why is there a gap of 132,000 years between A and C?


There are 2 main schools :

- long chronology with an average of 3,500/3,700 years per mutation and out of africa 125,000/130,000 years ago in Eemian (phase 5e) , I am partisan with an 'out of Arabia/Near East' to South Asia 85,000 years ago in Odderad interstadial (phase 5a).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-core-isotope.png
Greenland GRIP (blue) is the most interesting for Northern Hemisphere.

- short chronology with about 1700 years by mutation and out of africa 60,000 years ago at the end of the first pleniglacial (phase 4) and the beginning of phase 3 .

There have partisans of intermediate chronology.
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