Kalash mtdna Discussion

Any discussions regarding mt-DNA markers, results or questions.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:20 pm
Anybody know why they have such a weird mtdna distribution in addition to so much ydna G?
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Posts: 83
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:12 pm
Are you referring to the Kalash mtDNA results? I am seeking a bit of clarification so I can help you find info. Not a expert, btw, but interested in these things.

I did a bit of research to learn more about the Kalash. What I found is rather interesting. To others who may follow this thread, here are some highlights, from Wikipedia of all places:

The Kalasha or Kalash, are indigenous people residing in the Chitral District of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, province of Pakistan. They speak the Kalasha language, from the Dardic family of the Indo-Iranian languages, and are considered a unique tribe among the Indo-Aryan peoples of Pakistan. They are related to the Nuristani people of the adjacent Nuristan (historically known as Kafiristan), province of Afghanistan. The Kalash's origins have fascinated anthropologists due to the unusually high frequency of light hair, skin, and eyes (particularly green). Marriage by elopement is rather frequent, also involving women who are already married to another man. Indeed, wife-elopement is counted as one of the "great customs" (ghōna dastūr) together with the main festivals.

Based on what I read, and keeping in mind that mtDNA is carried by both men and women, but only passed down from omther to daughters, and given this practice of elopement, I wouldn't be surprised about the wide and enigmatic [if such is the word I correctly infer form your question] distribution of mtDNA and G Y-DNA among the Kalash. The clan/lineage system is also complex, base don these intermarriage. Furthermore, women can change husbands in a simple manner, and it is usually initiated by the woman who in interested in changing husbands. I think this is rather progressive for this group.

So, if you add these factors, you can see how mtDNA distribution would be wide. This is not the case when a group is closed, and only intermarriages among its group [and then you see a clearly defined mtDA lineage].

I hope this info helps!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:36 am
sofiagelpi wrote:Are you referring to the Kalash mtDNA results? I am seeking a bit of clarification so I can help you find info. Not a expert, btw, but interested in these things.

I did a bit of research to learn more about the Kalash. What I found is rather interesting. To others who may follow this thread, here are some highlights, from Wikipedia of all places:

The Kalasha or Kalash, are indigenous people residing in the Chitral District of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, province of Pakistan. They speak the Kalasha language, from the Dardic family of the Indo-Iranian languages, and are considered a unique tribe among the Indo-Aryan peoples of Pakistan. They are related to the Nuristani people of the adjacent Nuristan (historically known as Kafiristan), province of Afghanistan. The Kalash's origins have fascinated anthropologists due to the unusually high frequency of light hair, skin, and eyes (particularly green). Marriage by elopement is rather frequent, also involving women who are already married to another man. Indeed, wife-elopement is counted as one of the "great customs" (ghōna dastūr) together with the main festivals.

Based on what I read, and keeping in mind that mtDNA is carried by both men and women, but only passed down from omther to daughters, and given this practice of elopement, I wouldn't be surprised about the wide and enigmatic [if such is the word I correctly infer form your question] distribution of mtDNA and G Y-DNA among the Kalash. The clan/lineage system is also complex, base don these intermarriage. Furthermore, women can change husbands in a simple manner, and it is usually initiated by the woman who in interested in changing husbands. I think this is rather progressive for this group.

So, if you add these factors, you can see how mtDNA distribution would be wide. This is not the case when a group is closed, and only intermarriages among its group [and then you see a clearly defined mtDA lineage].

I hope this info helps!



I have Kalash dna according to Stanfords Interpretome calculator. Kalash, Sindhi, Brahui and Boloch. I have no idea which side this came from either! Seriously it could be either.
Sofia you are right about the Kalash.
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine
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Posts: 83
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Location: Ancestral location: Spain
YDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:17 am
Diana Sotela wrote:I have Kalash dna according to Stanfords Interpretome calculator. Kalash, Sindhi, Brahui and Boloch. I have no idea which side this came from either! Seriously it could be either.
Sofia you are right about the Kalash.


Diana, you may want to visit http://u4haplogroup.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... alash.html

It is a blog started by a person who got U4 results, and embarked on a search for info on U4. This person also happens to be the administrators of the U4 project at FTDNA!!

What I find rather interesting is the fact that among the Kalash, the most prevalent haplogroup is U4 [I wonder what the percentage is, as it is not listed in this blog]. Then, about 9% of the Kalash population have mtDNa J2 (Am.J.Hum.Genet.2004 May, 74(5) 827-845). The few U4 posts that I saw indicate that these are people with ancestry in the British Isles. Having seen pics of the Kalash, I am not surprised.

Also, the Kalash are people that live in the Hindu-Kush mountain region [and my educated guess is that it is [or was until "recently"] a nomadic group]. What is important to note is that the Aryans, who pushed the original Indian population south, and settled in places like today's Kashmir region, share many physical features with the Kalash: fair skin, light colored hair, green eyes. I am not saying that the Kalash come from the Aryans [or vice versa]. What I am saying is that these were groups dispersed in the valley, and who spread in all four directions. From the linguistic standpoint, the Aryans brought Sanskrit to the Indian Peninsula. I explain: Hindi [which comes from Sanskrit], is an Indo-European language. In fact, there are several Indo-European languages in Northern India. As we trek south, we find languages like kerala and tamil, that ARE NOT of Indo-European extraction. Even the script differs entirely from the languages that adopted Sanskrit script. Kalashi, the language spoken by the Kalash, IS Indo-European [or more correctly, Indo-Aryan]. If I were to do a linguistic map [similar to the mtDNA maps, really], it would be possible to see the expansion of perhaps an original group, who then broke off into several groups [each with a linguistic change that eventually became a separate language, similar to the mutations in mtDNA that yield new haplogroups or new subclades].

Could U4 be a Central Asian haplogroup? Maybe. I am not an expert on this topic, and there is much more to read on my end.

Did U4 make it to Europe? By what I have seen so far using a basic online search, the answer here is YES.

But what about U? Haplogroup U comes from a woman who in turn was part of haplogroup R. If you take a look at a mtDNA map, you will find mtDNA R in Central Asia! If U comes from R, then one could safely assume that U orignated somewhere in Central Asia as well [i.e. the mutations that led from R to U in a woman who lived somewhere in Central Asia]. Thus, I wouldn't be surprised to find many U people carrying Central Asian dna [for example, when doing the population finder test].

Come to think of it, at some point I had a HVR1 match with someone in Turkey. I I were to do a population finder test, i am sure I would a certain percentage of Asian DNA [maybe even Central Asian DNA].
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:24 pm
They are open and progressive withbin ut they are highly endogamous and closed to the rest of the world.

U4 doesn't really have much to do with the British Isles. It is said to have originated around the Urals and is more chraceristic of Scandanavians and Balto-Slavic speakers. Just because U originated in Central Asia doesn't make all clades of U native to there. U6 for example is North African while U2i is NW South Asian.
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Posts: 83
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Location: Ancestral location: Spain
YDNA:
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:03 am
newtoboard wrote:They are open and progressive withbin ut they are highly endogamous and closed to the rest of the world.

U4 doesn't really have much to do with the British Isles. It is said to have originated around the Urals and is more chraceristic of Scandanavians and Balto-Slavic speakers. Just because U originated in Central Asia doesn't make all clades of U native to there. U6 for example is North African while U2i is NW South Asian.


This is what I know so far: the daughters you see under U [Ursula] are the result of specific mutations. For example, having the mutation in HVR1 of C16270T puts the individual in U5 whereas a mutation in HVR1 of T16249C puts the individual in U1, or the T16356C that would put the individual in U4 [see http://www.phylotree.org/tree/subtree_U.htm for further info]. The speculation is that U originated somewhere in Central Asia, but it is speculation. As the different groups split, differences/changes in weather, climate, diet, and so forth triggered the mutations that have yielded the daughters of Ursula [to use Brian Sykes' poetic language].

U5, for example [and I use this example because I am U5, and have done more research on this daughter] shows a high frequency in the Scandinavia/Finland region [see http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_ ... ency.shtml for further info; however, take a look at the percentage by country, which is rather interesting; also check the results for U4]. As to where they came from, we can all speculate. The data only shows where large groups have lived, not where they came from. This is why it is highly theorized that U came from Central Asia, and this is based on archeological data that shows the oldest U remains to be from this area. Central Asia, if anyone looks at a map, is a rather large area, larger that the United States. That is a huge amount of landmass in which individuals could move. Tomorrow, there could be U5 remains in India that are far older than anything we know. Then, what do we do????

U6 is interesting, as it shows a type of back-migration [note: back-migration within the context of the Out of Africa theory]. These were U groups that eventually settled in North Africa, perhaps during the LGM [the Iberian Peninsula and Africa could have still been connected, or they took the Arabian Peninsula route, or they had maritime skills and made to North Africa in that fashion.], and stayed. U5 for, example, went south to Portugal and Spain from the north, and archeological remains have been found in Spain that are U5. The low frequency of U5 in Spain, and the fact the the frequency slowly increases until it reaches its peak in the Scandinavia/Finland region pinpoints to the idea of a migration back to the north once the ice sheets receded. U6, in this case, did not return. The mutations are unique enough to allow for the establishment of new daughter for the U group. I can't say that U6 originates in North Africa, but I can say that a high frequency of U6 are found in North Africa, indicating that this group settled here long enough for the mutation to become widespread over the population.

I know it is very easy to fall into the "origination" theory as one tries to find connections that are meaningful when it comes to haplogroup results. I have! The important aspect is to remember this is about human migration. The mutations that yield new haplogroups, or clades, or subclades, need to be filtered within the human migration experience, and not so much the origination experience. My "group" might have "originated" in Central Asia [i.e. it is in this area that U split from its ancestral R line], and eventually found itself in Finland [some 50-60kya]. However, I was born in Spain [5.5% of the population is U5]. When did my group leave Finland? How different am I from that group? I am U5b2b3a, so a lot has happened from when my ancestral group was plainly U5 some 60-50kya.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290
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Posts: 101
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YDNA:
Pat-R-P312-DF27+
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:41 pm
Sofia I know that the Saami are mostly U5b1's.

My DNA admixture from my mom is ALL Sweden, Finland, Norway and our haplogroup is U5b1d1.

My belief is the latter (d1) occurred after they came out of Scandinavia probably with the Norman Conquest and picked up these final mutations as of now all her haplo matches are in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and some UK.
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Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:52 pm
newtoboard wrote:Anybody know why they have such a weird mtdna distribution in addition to so much ydna G?


Have a lookie at this map. This may help. What type of Mt dna do the Kalash have?
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine

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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:04 am
Diana Sotela wrote:
newtoboard wrote:Anybody know why they have such a weird mtdna distribution in addition to so much ydna G?


Have a lookie at this map. This may help. What type of Mt dna do the Kalash have?


U2e
U4
J2
R0a

Which is weird. U2i isn't uncommon and neither is U2e in NW South Asia (U2e seems to be present in Central Asia) but how did the Kalash end up exclusively U2e?

U4 is also found in the area but usually U5a (which is eastern european and came with IE speakers) is more common.

J1 isn't rare in Pakistanis.

R0a is rare in general.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:07 pm
I am searching matches with my family.
I am R0a1a and the cousin from my maternal grandmama is J2b1a, both of them coming from same region - Bartodzieje in Poland.
I see that both of this haplogroups are also in the Kalash population, so maybe they migrated together?
I know still too less to have even some direction of those results.
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