The History of Slavs Inferred from Complete Mitochondrial Ge

Any discussions regarding mt-DNA markers, results or questions.

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R1a1a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:50 am
stoeni wrote:ROFL, which dream was this?


You're still asking the wrong question. You should be asking these two questions...

a) Where's the Scandinavian R1a-Z284 in Europe?

b) Where are the Gothic weapons and other remains with Gothic runes from Poland?

like goths on the border of roman lands...sounds like goths on the black sea area


Goths were first attested in what is now Romania and items with Gothic runes have been recovered from the Romanian Carpathians.

The late Roman frontier ran through what is now Romania and it was close to the Black Sea and what is now Ukraine.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:47 am
lgmayka wrote:Those are the subclades, not L1025 itself. Their expansion is most likely related to the formation and growth of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

I would agree with that (though only partially), so let’s assume for a moment that you are right and all known subclades of L1025 have indeed expanded during the growth of GDL. My question is then as follows: how was it possible that all known Baltic subclades of N1c-L1025 expanded at about the same time, while nothing similar happened to any subclade or subcluster of Baltic R1a. If clade L1025 as a whole was present among the Balts since at least 1000 BC (as you seem to suggest), it is hard to imagine that such sudden expansion would be so Y-DNA-selective. The medieval Lithuanians could not have known who is N1c and who is R1a if all these people were living together during the previous 2000 years. The GDL-associated expansion would be a perfect explanation, but only if one subclade of N1c (like L551) expanded at the beginning of the second millennium or if this happened to nearly all subgroupings of R1a and N1c in Lithuania, and not when only the subclades of N1c-L1025 suddenly exploded (although being separated by about 2000 years of independent development within the Baltic community). Also, it doesn’t seem that this expansion of N1c was much stronger among Lithuanians than among other Baltic populations (which should be expected if this was indeed associated mostly with the growth of GDL). Actually, a very similar frequency of N1c-L1025 is seen not only in the neighboring regions of Belarus and in Latvia (as could be expected) but also among people originating from Prussia, although Prussia was never conquered by GDL.

lgmayka wrote:That is true only of L551, which was quickly noticed to have 15 at DYS392, a notoriously slow-changing marker. L591 and L1027 do not have any distinctive alleles on slow markers, and indeed can be easily confused with each other and with L1025* .

You are right. I thought that L591 was roughly equivalent to cluster M (or N-M), but now I see that the initially defined cluster M was encompassing only a part of L591 that is currently called Ma (although the modified cluster M is actually roughly corresponding to L591).

lgmayka wrote:You are confusing the original East Baltic expansion with the formation and growth of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

:) You seem to avoid the crucial question here, so let me rephrase it. Both Lithuanians and Latvians were East Baltic tribes, so if N1c-L1025 was present among all Balts (including Eastern Balts) between 500 BC and 1 AD (as you seem to assume), we should see similar expansion of different subclades or subclusters of N1c-L1025, as we see it for different subclusters of the R1a-Z92 clade (like 7.A1B, 7.A1C and 7.B). As far as I know, there is no data suggesting that any subgroup of N1c-L1025 (or L1025 as a whole) have significantly expanded in the second half of the first millennium BC.

lgmayka wrote:No, that is false. Your impression, and the two charts you cite, suffer from a lack of sampling as well as an overreliance on a single marker, DYS19. The Polish-Lithuanian Project has 4 confirmed L1025+ with DYS19=14, as well as several other likely candidates.

I’ve never said that DYS19 alone is sufficient to distinguish the Baltic and Finnish sublineages of L1025. It is obvious that the similarity at one STR marker could be purely coincidental. Based on my (very preliminary) analysis, I would assume that the set of the most important STRs showing different values in the Finnish and Baltic L1025 haplotypes includes DYS19, DYS439, DYS456, DYS481, DYS520 and DYS635.

lgmayka wrote:No, that does not follow. One could just as easily reverse your statement's direction to say that "the usual association of L1025 with the South Baltic makes a similar origin of its sister Varangian branch quite likely." Your argument would carry some weight only if you could show that L550(xL1025) in Scandinavia is significantly older than the L550 (both L1025+ and L1025-) in the South and East Baltic.

I would agree with you if my conclusion was based solely on the Scandinavian origin of the Varangian sister branch, but you seem to forget that I clearly indicated that it is the combination of the Scandinavian origin of L550(xL1025) and the evident Finnish association of the early separated sub-branch of L1025 that make the Baltic origin of L1025 much less likely.

lgmayka wrote:As I mentioned above, either their sampling is too limited, or they are ignoring all the test results that don't fit neatly into a subclade, or--most likely--they simply choose not to show such unclassified results on their charts.

I don’t exclude that you and mouglley could be right as to the Baltic origin of L1025, especially if you indeed have done such more detailed analysis and the results seem to confirm your scenario, but so far neither of you have shown me an example of a Baltic L1025 haplotype that would be evidently more closely related to the Finnish L1025 haplotypes than to any other Baltic L1025 haplotypes. Please believe me that I would love to be convinced by you, but you really need to help me a bit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:53 am
Tomatoes wrote:Here's a likely scenario for you...

I have already known your view on this subject but thank you for sharing it again.

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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:00 am
Michał wrote:I have already known your view on this subject but thank you for sharing it again.


Yeah, no problem.

By the way, can you share with us why there's no "Scandinavian Gothic" R1a-Z284 in Europe south of Scandinavia, and why no Gothic items with Eastern Germanic runes have ever been found in Poland?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 am
Tomatoes wrote:
stoeni wrote:ROFL, which dream was this?


You're still asking the wrong question. You should be asking these two questions...

a) Where's the Scandinavian R1a-Z284 in Europe?


who cares about scandinavia.. :!:
you keep bringing up the norwegian Z284, who you trying to fool, talk about Z283 found in both gotland and poland

b) Where are the Gothic weapons and other remains with Gothic runes from Poland?


you sold them :!:

Questions are getting more silly

Goths were first attested in what is now Romania and items with Gothic runes have been recovered from the Romanian Carpathians.


your mixing up the getae for goths, the getae are thracian people

The late Roman frontier ran through what is now Romania and it was close to the Black Sea and what is now Ukraine.


Again, you history knowledge starts at the decline of the Roman empire..........you do realise there where genetics and people before then..don't you
Last edited by stoeni on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109
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Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:31 am
Michał wrote:
:) You seem to avoid the crucial question here, so let me rephrase it. Both Lithuanians and Latvians were East Baltic tribes, so if N1c-L1025 was present among all Balts (including Eastern Balts) between 500 BC and 1 AD (as you seem to assume), we should see similar expansion of different subclades or subclusters of N1c-L1025, as we see it for different subclusters of the R1a-Z92 clade (like 7.A1B, 7.A1C and 7.B). As far as I know, there is no data suggesting that any subgroup of N1c-L1025 (or L1025 as a whole) have significantly expanded in the second half of the first millennium BC.


you cannot say on one hand, Lithuanians created west-baltic barrow culture ( another post )and then place them with east-baltic people here.

If the Lithuanians are east then who created the westbaltic barrow culture then?
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 640
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 2:15 am

YDNA:
R1a1a
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:57 am
You guys need to join another forum. Maybe where you can discuss Dungeons & Dragons, Tolkien and dressing up like Elves?

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Location: Warsaw, Poland
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:48 pm
stoeni wrote:you cannot say on one hand, Lithuanians created west-baltic barrow culture ( another post ).

Sorry, but I don't remember writing anything of this kind. Could you please cite the relevant fragment of my post?

stoeni wrote:If the Lithuanians are east then who created the westbaltic barrow culture then?

As the name indicates, this culture is believed to be created by the Western Balts (or at least by a part of them).

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Location: Warsaw, Poland
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:50 pm
Tomatoes wrote:
Michał wrote:I have already known your view on this subject but thank you for sharing it again.

Yeah, no problem.

Let's transfer this discussion to the "Who were the Goths?" thread.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:33 am
Tomatoes wrote:You're always trying to be so "objective" that it's just sad to watch.|


That explains a lot.

Tomatoes wrote:There's an amazing story to be had here, and that's the genetic continuity in East Central Europe from the Chalcolithic to the present, and a series of R1a expansions from this region that included the spread of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.


Wow, that is an amazing story. Here is a helpful link. After you study this, maybe we can have an objective discussion about the H5* mtDNA data.
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