Another paper on Etruscans

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:30 pm
Jacobo Pardo-Seco et al.: A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origin of the Etruscans.

It's incredible! Another paper which tries to demonstrate that Etruscans came from to-day Turkey, between Turkey and the Caucasus, as if Herodotus were right and not Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who lived at the time of Augustus and could compare Etruscan language with the supposed ones of Asia Minor. These papers (this and others) come above all from Iberia, Spain and Portugal, and the suspect that they are funded by some country of Latin America is huge.
This after that archaeologists know from many times that there is no link between Etruscan world and Asia Minor, except cultural ones, but for this the link should have been with Greece better than Asia Minor. This after that the paper of Brisighelli et al., which thought having found a link with mt hg. U7 in Elba Island and "Asia", has been not only ridiculed by me but disproved from the mt phylogeny which sees in those samples the hg U7b (above all European) and not the mostly Asian U7a.
The samples of 1KGP, taken for comparing, come all from a little town around Florence which, not only isn't representative of the whole Tuscan population, but which has no particular link with the Etruscan descent. Other papers searched for the link in conservative towns of the deep Tuscany, thought more linked to the Etruscan world.
Thus I smell a new flop, but I'll write more after reading and studying the paper.
Of course the unique link could be demonstrated when an haplogroup (better an Y rather than an mt, for the too slow mutating rate of the latter) of a Tuscan and of a "Turk" could be linked at the Big Y or Y Prime or now Full Genome level, excluding that that "Turk" may descend from Romans, Genoese or other people that in these 3 millennia may have reached those lands.
Last edited by Gioiello on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:26 pm
Should we take seriously a paper, which, after having said that the Middle Easterner component of Etruscans formed 5000 years ago in to-day Iran, migrated to South Caucasus and after to Lydia, from where, as Herodotus said, to Tuscany, using more the Babylonian divination rather than modern genetics? And which says after:

"Considering the recorded as well as the likely unrecorded population flows within Europe in the last couple of thousand years, the study of the Etruscans using modern DNA of their most presumable descendants, the Tuscans, is very challenging. For instance, the date obtained in the present study for the admixture estimates could actually represent a mixture of two European populations ~2,600–3,100 y.a., and not necessarily a mixture of a European and a Middle Eastern population [...] The Middle Eastern genomic patterns observed in present-day Tuscans could also be the result of various overlapping waves of migrants coming from different regions in Middle East and South Caucasus at different times; some of them could have arrived to this region in Neolithic times" (pp. 7-8).
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:52 am
Maybe this paper from 2013 is the best to sum up the etruscans

Genetic evidence does not support an etruscan origin in Anatolia

Francesca Tassi1,
Silvia Ghirotto1,
David Caramelli2 and
Guido Barbujani1,*

Article first published online: 30 JUL 2013


I cannot believe the etruscans are from lydia because chios, rhodes and lyciens people all have T1 ydna ( up to 4% ) and they all live next to lydians , yet there is hardly any T1 ydna found in etruscans. etruscans cannot be lydians especially since etruscans are stated as entering Italy only from 800BC
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:04 am
stoeni wrote:I cannot believe the etruscans are from lydia because chios, rhodes and lyciens people all have T1 ydna ( up to 4% ) and they all live next to lydians , yet there is hardly any T1 ydna found in etruscans. etruscans cannot be lydians especially since etruscans are stated as entering Italy only from 800BC


Actually Tuscany has hg. T, one sample or more also in the 1KGP, which does mean a percentage of 2% if only one or 4% if two, and I am sure that one is a basal T-L446, but everything should be demonstrated through a comparing at the SNP level. Unfortunately its STRs weren't published like of other samples from 1KGP and I haven't a PC, a program and the knowledge for reading the 1KGP data, as smal and the Russian team do.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:10 am
Three samples, thus 6%, not a few:
--------------------------------------------
T1a1CTS11418 * PF5520 * CTS931 * PF5622/CTS4378 * PF5546/CTS4416... 80 SNPs
T1a1*
T1a1aL208/PAGE2 * L905
T1a1a*
id:YF02107new
id:NA20520 TSI
-----------------------------------------------
T-Y4981Y4981 * Y5290 * Y5291 * Y5292

id:YF01796
id:NA20527 TSI
id:YF01939
----------------------------------------------
T1a2CTS8309 * CTS10803 * CTS11796 * CTS933 * CTS1482... 43 SNPs

T1a2*
T1a2aP322 * P328
T1a2bL446
T1a2b*
id:NA20758 TSI
id:YF01989

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:51 am
Perhaps this experiment of Roberta Estes is useful also for understanding Etruscan ancestry:

Analyzing the Native American Clovis Anzick Ancient Results
Posted on September 23, 2014
This ancient DNA truly is the gift that keeps on giving.
Today, Felix Chandrakamur e-mailed me and told me that the Anzick results were not yet fully processed at Gedmatch when I performed a “compare to all.” He knows this because he knows when he uploaded the results, and after they were finished, he ran the same compare and obtained vastly different results. I am updating my original article to point to this one, so the data will be accurately reflected.
In fact, the results are utterly fascinating, take your breath away kind of fascinating. Felix wrote an article about his findings, Clovis-Anzick-1 ancient DNA have matches with living people!
While finding what appear to be contemporary matches for the Anzick child may sound ho-hum, it’s not, and when you look at the results and the message they hold for us, it’s absolutely astounding.
Felix ran his comparison with default values of 7cM. This is the threshold that is typically utilized as the line in the sand between “real” and IBS, matches – real meaning the results are and could be, if you could find your common ancestor, genealogically relevant. In this case, that clearly isn’t true.
The exception to this rule is heavily admixed groups, such as Ashkenazi Jewish people who are related to every other Askhenazi Jewish person autosomally. It seems, looking at these results, that this is the same situation we find with the 12,500 year old Anzick child and currently living people. This population had to be painfully small for a very long time and the DNA had to exist in every person within that population group for it to be passed in segments this large to people living today.
After receiving Felix’s e-mail, of course, I had to go back and run the compares again. In particular, I wanted to run the one to many, as he had.
I began at the 1cM level and noticed that I received exactly 1500 results, which seemed to me like a cutoff – not an actual number of matches. So, I upped that threshold to 2, then 3, then 4, then 5, then 6, then finally to the default of 7. It was only at 7, the IBS/IBD default, that the results were under the 1500 threshold, at 1466.
1466 current matches?????
This is absolutely amazing. The Anzick child lived about 12,500 years ago in Montana. How are 1466 matches to currently living people possible?
Many of these matches are to people from the southwest and Mexico today. They are not, for the most part, from eastern Canada.
Let’s take a look at what we found.
In the 1466 results, as Felix mentioned, the closest matches match at current “cousin” levels to Anzick. The highest 7 matches that show haplogroups are haplogroup Q1a3a. Unfortunately, with the constant renaming of the haplogroups recently, it’s difficult to interpret the haplogroup exactly, which is why we’ve gone to SNP names. Looking at some of the names and e-mails, several appear to carry Spanish surnames or be from Mexico or South America.
Of the 1466 results:
2 were Y haplogroup C
79 were Y haplogroup Q
520 carried a mitochondrial DNA haplogroup of A, B, C, D, M or X
Of the 79 haplogroup Q carriers, 52 also carried a Native mitochondrial haplogroup.
A total 549 individuals out of 1466 carried at least one Native American haplogroup, or about 37.5%. That’s amazingly high.
Of these closest matches who are Y haplogroup Q, they also all carry variant Native American mitochondrial DNA haplogroups as well, so these people may not be heavily admixed. In other words, they may be almost “pure” Native American.
In order to test this theory, I entered the number of the kit that rated the highest in terms of total cM at 160.1 with the largest segment at 14.8. You can click on the images to enlarge.
anzick1
As you can see, this individual is very nearly 100% Native American.
The second individual on the list, who may be from Guatemala, also carries almost no admixture.
anzick2
Of the highest 21 matches that listed any haplogroup information, all have either or both Native Y or mitochondrial DNA haplogroups.
Out of curiosity, I ran the first person on the list who had neither a Native American Y or mitochondrial haplogroup – both being European.
As you can see, below, they are still clearly heavily Native American, but clearly admixed.
anzick3
I moved to the last person of the 1466 on this list whose DNA matched at a total of 7cM, who did not carry a Native haplogroup. This individual, below, is more heavily admixed.
anzick 3.5
Lastly, I ran the same admixture tool on the last person, who had a total of 7cM matching that did have a Native American mitochondrial haplogroup.
anzick4
Not surprisingly, the individual with almost no non-Native admixture is much more likely to carry the ancient segments in higher percentages than the individuals who are admixed. This again strongly suggests that at one point, these segments were present in an entire group of Native people and may still be present in very high numbers in people who carry no admixture.
Out of curiosity, and assuming that these first two individuals are not known to be related to each other, I ran them against each other in a one to one comparison.
There were no matches at the default values, but by dropping them just a little, to 5cM and 500 SNPs, they match on 6 segments.
anzick5
It looks like they should match on chromosome 17 at the 700 SNP/7 cM default threshold.
At 200 SNPs and 2cM, there were 67 segments. These are clearly ancient in nature and size, but matching just the same. By lowering the threshold to 100 SNPs and 1cM, they share a whopping 990 segments.
Indeed, these two men very clearly share a lot of population specific DNA from the ancient people of the New World, including that of Anzick male child who lived in Montana 12,500 years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:26 pm
Gioiello wrote:Three samples, thus 6%, not a few:
--------------------------------------------
T1a1CTS11418 * PF5520 * CTS931 * PF5622/CTS4378 * PF5546/CTS4416... 80 SNPs
T1a1*
T1a1aL208/PAGE2 * L905
T1a1a*
id:YF02107new
id:NA20520 TSI
-----------------------------------------------
T-Y4981Y4981 * Y5290 * Y5291 * Y5292

id:YF01796
id:NA20527 TSI
id:YF01939
----------------------------------------------
T1a2CTS8309 * CTS10803 * CTS11796 * CTS933 * CTS1482... 43 SNPs

T1a2*
T1a2aP322 * P328
T1a2bL446
T1a2b*
id:NA20758 TSI
id:YF01989



thanks

although the top 2 belong to the southern T group with its parent L162

and the bottom one to the northern T group with its parent L131

The southern branch, I have been told, is the older line of the 2 and is in great numbers along the adriatic coast from molise to abruzzo
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

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