Bell Beakers in Ireland

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:23 am
Gioiello
I see G2a and I2a among the BBs. Did those two groups expand from the Steppe also?

I don't see U106 in the BBC or the CWC. U106 did not expand from the Steppe.

I don't see DF27 among the Iberian BB or any other. Where did the massive DF27 presence in Iberia originate?

Earliest beakers originated in Iberia. Earliest R1b BB in Poland (14251). Did P312 originate in Poland? Poland is not in the Steppe.

One U106 shows up in the Celtic Unetice Culture.

Only six U106 out of the 37 ancients show up in the Longobard cemetery. U106 is not the dominant haplogroup among the Longobards. Another myth shattered.

The oldest R1b in Beaker appears to be

I4251 Poland Bell Beaker 2837–2672 R1b1a1a2~M269
The revised the radio carbon date for I4251 2431–2150 calBCE (3825±25 BP, PSUAMS-2321)
Last edited by dartraighe on Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:53 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I see G2a and I2a among the BBs. Did those two groups expand from the Steppe also?

I don't see U106 in the BBC or the CWC. U106 did not expand from the Steppe.

I don't see DF27 among the Iberian BB or any other. Where did the massive DF27 presence in Iberia originate?

Earliest beakers originated in Iberia. Earliest R1b BB in Poland. Did P312 originate in Poland? Poland is not in the Steppe.

One U106 shows up in the Celtic Unetice Culture.

Only six U106 out of the 37 ancients show up in the Longobard cemetery. U106 is not the dominant haplogroup among the Longobards. Another myth shattered.


Dartraighe, I have worked a lot in tese days and I have to digest all these data.
1) First of all it is clear now that R-V88 came from Sardinia/Italy or at least Western Europe: also the paper of D'Atanasio (read Cruciani) recognized that. Cruciani was the theorist of the coming of R-V88 from Middle East and the link with Chadian languages. 1st victory to me.
2) My hypothesis that R-L389* came from Italy because Italy has also to-day the known 5 haplotypes found so far and that Caucasian cluster of R-L389 with YCAII=23-23 derived from Italian or Western European cluster with 18-23 through a RecLOH is demonstrated and it will be clear to everyone when the tree of FTDNA and the YTree come out. 2nd victory to me.
3) About the samples from Longobard cemeteries all people should remember that just from the preprint last year we did know that those people were mixed: some were of Western-Northern European origin and Others, already in Pannonia, were of "Tuscan" origin, i.e. of Roman or Italian or Southern European (I mean Iberia and not Balkans etc.) ancestry, thus we have to study carefully those haplotypes. We have the data of the authors of the paper, amongst them the leftist not a friend of mine I call Farfugliani, thus I am waiting that also Genetiker does his calls, and after I'll do my analysis.

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:56 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I see G2a and I2a among the BBs. Did those two groups expand from the Steppe also?

I don't see U106 in the BBC or the CWC. U106 did not expand from the Steppe.

I don't see DF27 among the Iberian BB or any other. Where did the massive DF27 presence in Iberia originate?

Earliest beakers originated in Iberia. Earliest R1b BB in Poland. Did P312 originate in Poland? Poland is not in the Steppe.

One U106 shows up in the Celtic Unetice Culture.

Only six U106 out of the 37 ancients show up in the Longobard cemetery. U106 is not the dominant haplogroup among the Longobards. Another myth shattered.


Dartraighe, I have worked a lot in tese days and I have to digest all these data.
1) First of all it is clear now that R-V88 came from Sardinia/Italy or at least Western Europe: also the paper of D'Atanasio (read Cruciani) recognized that. Cruciani was the theorist of the coming of R-V88 from Middle East and the link with Chadian languages. 1st victory to me.
2) My hypothesis that R-L389* came from Italy because Italy has also to-day the known 5 haplotypes found so far and that Caucasian cluster of R-L389 with YCAII=23-23 derived from Italian or Western European cluster with 18-23 through a RecLOH is demonstrated and it will be clear to everyone when the tree of FTDNA and the YTree come out. 2nd victory to me.
3) About the samples from Longobard cemeteries all people should remember that just from the preprint last year we did know that those people were mixed: some were of Western-Northern European origin and Others, already in Pannonia, were of "Tuscan" origin, i.e. of Roman or Italian or Southern European (I mean Iberia and not Balkans etc.) ancestry, thus we have to study carefully those haplotypes. We have the data of the authors of the paper, amongst them the leftist not a friend of mine I call Farfugliani, thus I am waiting that also Genetiker does his calls, and after I'll do my analysis.



Gioiello
You can see by this U106 tree by Dr McDonald that a lot of the major branches of U106 were formed by 2,000 BC. U106 had 1,000 years in which to grow in western Europe and yet U106 is absent from two of the major cultures at that time. Where is U106 and which cultures did they belong in is a major puzzle?
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/tree.html

Genetiker is the expert at fleshing out the YSNP calls from the ancients and I hope he has the time and energy to work on these new samples.

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:46 pm
This morning I posted that the oldest R1b in Beaker appears to be I4251 Poland Bell Beaker 2837–2672 R1b1a1a2~M269

The radio carbon date for the Poland BB I4251 has now been revised, 2431–2150 calBCE (3825±25 BP, PSUAMS-2321).

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:37 am
Gioiello
some people are writing that EHG is mixture of WHG + ANE and what about CHG? I wrote a post last year about all Europeans being descended from the Villabruna clan who belonged to the Ice-Age refugees. EHG must be derived from WHG due to the fact that WHG came first.

Where is the L51 sample in Hungary? L51 is 6,000 ybp not 4,500 ybp. Why does some people refer to P312 and u106 as L51? Use the correct term for these subgroups so as not to confuse people or else people will be right to assume that there is an agenda.

WTF has horses got to do with R1b being prolific breeders in WE during the BA? Why weren't R1b males prolific breeders around the Sok River region and on their way to West Europe? There is no R1b YSNP trail from the Sok River to WE. There would be no discussions nor disputes if they had been.

The one thing that is obvious is that L51 was only one single family which produced one single line of descent until the birth of P312 and U106. Look at the Y tree and you will see 17 YSNPs that every R1b P312 and U106 descendant has and then you will know. Get with the program.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:12 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
some people are writing that EHG is mixture of WHG + ANE and what about CHG? I wrote a post last year about all Europeans being descended from the Villabruna clan who belonged to the Ice-Age refugees. EHG must be derived from WHG due to the fact that WHG came first.

Where is the L51 sample in Hungary? L51 is 6,000 ybp not 4,500 ybp. Why does some people refer to P312 and u106 as L51? Use the correct term for these subgroups so as not to confuse people or else people will be right to assume that there is an agenda.

WTF has horses got to do with R1b being prolific breeders in WE during the BA? Why weren't R1b males prolific breeders around the Sok River region and on their way to West Europe? There is no R1b YSNP trail from the Sok River to WE. There would be no discussions nor disputes if they had been.

The one thing that is obvious is that L51 was only one single family which produced one single line of descent until the birth of P312 and U106. Look at the Y tree and you will see 17 YSNPs that every R1b P312 and U106 descendant has and then you will know. Get with the program.


But between R-L51* and P312* and U106* there are many bush subclades:
1) R-L51-PF7589* above all from Tuscany and Italy
2) R-L11*
But the first person who breaks the line of 12 SNPs is King David/Theuderic (alias Paolo Amerighi from a noble family from Siena, Tuscany, Italy) who is waiting for his Big Y, and very likely he already had but I don’t know why he is hiding that.
Of course that a Tuscan from a noble family from medieval times could be of German origin is a possibility, and I wrote a lot about this intermediate R-L11 from Bell Beakers in Germany as possible ancestors of our Amerighi. And that L11 may have expanded with German people I am writing from many years, also for its huge presence in the Isles, the Baltic and eastern Alps.
We are waiting for a DNA proof.
Last edited by Gioiello on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:46 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
some people are writing that EHG is mixture of WHG + ANE and what about CHG? I wrote a post last year about all Europeans being descended from the Villabruna clan who belonged to the Ice-Age refugees. EHG must be derived from WHG due to the fact that WHG came first.

Where is the L51 sample in Hungary? L51 is 6,000 ybp not 4,500 ybp. Why does some people refer to P312 and u106 as L51? Use the correct term for these subgroups so as not to confuse people or else people will be right to assume that there is an agenda.

WTF has horses got to do with R1b being prolific breeders in WE during the BA? Why weren't R1b males prolific breeders around the Sok River region and on their way to West Europe? There is no R1b YSNP trail from the Sok River to WE. There would be no discussions nor disputes if they had been.

The one thing that is obvious is that L51 was only one single family which produced one single line of descent until the birth of P312 and U106. Look at the Y tree and you will see 17 YSNPs that every R1b P312 and U106 descendant has and then you will know. Get with the program.


But between R-L51* and P312* and U106* there are many bush subclades:
1) R-L51-PF7589* above all from Tuscany and Italy
2) R-L11*
But the first person who breaks the line of 12 SNPs is King David/Theuderic (alias Paolo Amerighi from a noble family from Siena, Tuscany, Italy) who is waiting for his Big Y, and very likely he already had but I don’t know why he is hiding that.
Of course that a Tuscan from a noble family from medieval times could be of German origin is a possibility, and I wrote a lot about this intermediate R-L11 from Bell Beakers in Germany as possible ancestors of our Amerighi. And that L11 may have expanded with German people I am writing from many years, also for its huge presence in the Isles, the Baltic and eastern Alps.
We are waiting for a DNA proof.



If you say that there are some L51* branches found in Italy, then Italy is most likely the place of origin and most R1b testers would not have a problem with that.


Here are the 17 YSNPs between L51and U106 from my Y Report at Yfull.
R-L51 Y410 • E207 PF6535 L51 • M412 • S167 • PF6536 PF6414 CTS10373 • PF6537 • FGC39
R-L151 L11 • S127 • PF6539 PF6416 PF6538 L151 • PF6542 A19949 • L52 • PF6541 P311 • S128 • PF6545 P310 • S129 • PF6546 YSC0000191 • PF6543 • S1159 CTS7650 • PF6544 • S1164 • FGC44 Y101 • FGC796 • Z8159 PF5856 YSC0001249 • CTS10353 • S1175

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:41 pm
Gioiello
The good news is that the sample Ukrainian I5884 Z2103 has a dating of 2890-2696 calBCE and no "Yamnaya" dna. Another little victory for you.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:21 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
The good news is that the sample Ukrainian I5884 Z2103 has a dating of 2890-2696 calBCE and no "Yamnaya" dna. Another little victory for you.


I thank you for you lesson of English. You know I am better with Latin.

Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:58 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
The good news is that the sample Ukrainian I5884 Z2103 has a dating of 2890-2696 calBCE and no "Yamnaya" dna. Another little victory for you.


I thank you for you lesson of English. You know I am better with Latin.


Gioiello
I think that this Ukrainian 15884 shows that Z2103 did not originate near the Sok River. If the P312 BBs originated in the Ukraine they should have the same autosomal results as 15884. And it is evidence also that the ancestors of the BB did not pass through the Ukraine.

From Eurogenes blog

[1] distance%=2.8944 / distance=0.028944

Ukraine_Eneolithic:I5884 (R1b-Z2103)
Ukraine_N 71.4
Trypillia 28.6
CHG 0
EHG 0
Yamnaya_Samara 0
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