Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:38 am
The earliest Kurgans came from the Caucasus and I have not seen any posts that suggest that the PIE originated in the Caucasus. The Yamnaya had 40% CHG which they got from a migration of people from the Caucasus who brought the Kurgan burial idea with them.

Origins and spread
"The earliest known kurgans are dated to the 4th millennium BC in the Caucasus.[3] Kurgan barrows were characteristic of Bronze Age peoples, and have been found from the Altay Mountains to the Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania, and Bulgaria. Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian steppes, their use spreading with migration into eastern, central, and northern Europe in the 3rd millennium BC."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan




In Ireland there are passage tombs and none are found in eastern or central Europe. The passage tomb builders did not come from eastern Europe. Who were these people? Where are the ancient dna samples from these tombs?

https://knowthyplace.wordpress.com/2011 ... owtumulus/

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:22 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... ry/554798/

"Zhang: How much does it cost to process an ancient DNA sample right now?

Reich: In our hands, a successful sample costs less than $200. That’s only two or three times more than processing them on a present-day person. And maybe about one-third to one half of the samples we screen are successful at this point."

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:31 am
"One other thing that seems clear is that the yDNA and general genetic bedrock of the people who would later be recorded speaking Celtic (after a few linguistic shifts in the Bronze Age) is the P312 beaker people. That doesn't mean I'm arguing they actually spoke Celtic from the get go - those shifts probably spread by constant friendly interaction and intermarriage which is manifest in the constant sharing of ideas,fashion and trade across the Bronze Age - but they were the same people genetically and culturally before and after those shifts."


The poster who wrote this above has a very narrow minded view of ydna groups and especially P312 and it is not surprising because he is L21. Does he not realise that only 2 million of the 225 million P312 males today are from the "Celtic" regions? What about the other 223 million P312 who do not speak a Celtic language and do not belong to a Celtic culture? The Iberians are just one of the peoples who don't speak a Celtic language but they are mostly P312. The Italians don't speak Celtic and there are 15 million R1b most of them P312. It is hard to believe that some posters are still trying to claim their that their ancestors were superior to other peoples ancestors and that the Celts were some kind of pure P312 race and P312 were the first YDNA group to speak the Indo European language. Also other ydna groups were found in BB graves, G2a, I2a and Z2103. I don't see any of the members of the other ydna groups laying a claim to the ownership of the Celtic languages.

The evidence to date shows the earliest P312 found in an ancient dna sample was in Germany and the earliest L21 dna sample has been found in England. Does that mean that P312 originated in Germany and L21 in England?!!!

The earliest U106 from an ancient dna sample was found in Sweden. Does that mean that U106 originated in Sweden ?!!!





The reality is that the experts say that the place of origin of the Celts was Austria 2,500 ybp and we do not have any YDNA from Austria yet.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:09 pm
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv ... 4488-1.pdf

"The presence of several archaeological cultures or cultural complexes (Coţofeni, Kostolac, Yamna,
Baden) can be demonstrated in the Carpathian Basin during the Late Copper Age; several burial
grounds and graves of these cultures are known, whose overall assessment and coverage varies.
The Baden complex dominated the greater part of the Carpathian Basin: most of the period’s
burials can be assigned to this cultural complex, a conglomerate of various traditions and of various
mortuary practices and customs, reflected also in the diversity of its mortuary symbolism."

"Y chromosomal haplogroup assignment of 82 Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples from
Hungary (~6000-2900 BCE), Germany (~5500-3000 BCE) and Spain (~5500-2200 BCE)."

Pages 45,46 and 47 shows the YDNA groups found.

No R1b in Hungarian Baden Culture.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:36 am
Gioiello
We have asked some academics to show us the L51 YSNP trail from Samara to Ireland and they answer us writing about horses, autosomal dna and the PIE. Their answer show us that they cannot give us what we are looking for because it does not exist. I don't know how Irish people in the BA got 32% Steppe dna and far less I care. I only know that it was not carried from the Ukraine or Samara by R1b YDNA males.

If the Ukraine was full of the early R1b branches of P312 and U106 when the massive migration of CWC people moved from the Ukraine into Germany why are they not showing up in the CWC graves? P312 and U106 had 500 years to produce lots of descendants before a 2,500 BC migration from the Steppe and we have some posters suggesting all the way from Samara. And a 5,000 year birth for both P312 and U106 is under estimated. That is the opinion of some experts.

A lot of the BB samples radio carbon dates are given as between 2,500-2,200 and L21 was already formed by 2,500 BC. U152 is even earlier.

Some posters are obsessed with the BBC, but we know from the ancient dna samples that DF27 and U106 are scarce in the BB, and they must have belonged to other early BA cultures.

Villabruna was L754+ but unresolved for all known downstream branches. The TMRCA for L754 is estimated at 17,100 ybp. Villabruna died 13,000 ybp so his sample was missing 4,000 years of YSNPs. If you look at Yfull you will see all the single Italian basal R1b branch entries in most R1b subclades. Villabruna may have been a dead line but his cousins descendants did not belong to dead lines or we would not be writing on dna forums.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:35 pm
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/an ... 378/42.231



Gioiello
I don't see P312 or U106 among any of the Ukrainian ancient dna samples.

I4253, Bell Beaker, 2571-2208 calBCE is the most eastern Iberian BB found so far.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:41 pm
People should realise that the scientists will never find the remains of Mr L11 in Europe because Europe is a huge place to even attempt to look for the skeletal remains of one man who died 5,000 years ago. L151>L11 was only one single line of descent for 12 YSNPs. The scientists can never even know which of the 12 YSNPs came first and the decendant order which they were in. The same goes for the 103 YSNPs for M269. There is no way of establishing the correct order of these 103 YSNPs.

I have yet to establish the one specific YSNP that originated in my most recent ancestor that occured within the past five generations. I know for certain that this specific YSNP originated in my ancestor who was born in Ireland. I think that it is the goal of some Big Y testers to try and pinpoint this most recent YSNP. When they find it they can then work from this YSNP back up the Y- tree and try to pinpoint the region of each specific branch to try and establish the route of their ancestor to the region that they were born in. I don't know if that is doable or not. Finding potential matches willing to take an NGS test will be the problem.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:31 am
dartraighe wrote:

I have yet to establish the one specific YSNP that originated in my most recent ancestor that occured within the past five generations. I know for certain that this specific YSNP originated in my ancestor who was born in Ireland. I think that it is the goal of some Big Y testers to try and pinpoint this most recent YSNP. When they find it they can then work from this YSNP back up the Y- tree and try to pinpoint the region of each specific branch to try and establish the route of their ancestor to the region that they were born in. I don't know if that is doable or not. Finding potential matches willing to take an NGS test will be the problem.



I have 10 YSNPs that I don't share with anyone else except family and 6 YSNPs that I share with one Big Y tester whose ancestors came from Ireland also. Those 16 YSNPs could all be of Irish origin but I cannot say for certain. I would need a lot more close Big Y matches and their ancestral origins would help to nail it.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:23 am
I think that the origin of the PIE is in the Fertile Crescent and with the first farmers. Professor Reich thinks that the south Caucasus is the place.

Also, I think that Professor Reich thinks that the Caucasus is the place of origin of modern humans.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:52 am
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-e09568/

Here is genetiker's calls for a BB (4,400-4,200) from Augsburg,Bavaria. The SNP calls show that he belongs to the S1194, the brother of U106 and P312.
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