Two Roman Gladiators DF98 and DF96

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:23 pm
Here are the GEDmatch IDs of the U106>Z156>Z307>DF98 and U106>Z156>Z307>DF96 York Romans. DF98 T752812 and DF96 T848818 and their Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:

Kit T752812 DF 98 1,800 ybp
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.4% West_Scottish + 8.6% Chechen @ 4.25
2 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% North_Ossetian @ 4.34
3 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% Adygei @ 4.44
4 91.9% West_Scottish + 8.1% Kabardin @ 4.44
5 91.3% West_Scottish + 8.7% Tabassaran @ 4.46
6 91.6% West_Scottish + 8.4% Lezgin @ 4.46
7 92.4% West_Scottish + 7.6% Ossetian @ 4.47
8 92.1% Irish + 7.9% Chechen @ 4.51
9 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% Balkar @ 4.52
10 91.7% Irish + 8.3% Tabassaran @ 4.56
11 93.6% West_Scottish + 6.4% Abhkasian @ 4.57
12 92.2% Irish + 7.8% Lezgin @ 4.62
13 93% Irish + 7% North_Ossetian @ 4.66
14 93.4% West_Scottish + 6.6% Georgian @ 4.67
15 92.7% Irish + 7.3% Kabardin @ 4.72
16 93.1% Irish + 6.9% Ossetian @ 4.72
17 93% Irish + 7% Adygei @ 4.72
18 92.3% West_Scottish + 7.7% Kumyk @ 4.77
19 93% Irish + 7% Balkar @ 4.79
20 94..2% Irish + 5.8% Abhkasian @ 4.84

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Kit T848818 DF96 1,800 ybp

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.1% North_German + 17.9% French_Basque @ 4.19
2 65.5% North_Swedish + 34.5% French_Basque @ 4.21
3 78.6% Danish + 21.4% French_Basque @ 4.86
4 79.6% North_German + 20..4% Southwest_French @ 4.87
5 67.5% Swedish + 32.5% French_Basque @ 4.9
6 73.9% Danish + 26.1% Southwest_French @ 5.08
7 83.4% Southeast_English + 16.6% Estonian_Polish @ 5.19
8 81.3% North_German + 18.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.21
9 82.6% Southeast_English + 17.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.21
10 82.8% Southwest_English + 17.2% Estonian_Polish @ 5.24
11 70.4% Irish + 29.6% Austrian @ 5.26
12 82% Southwest_English + 18% Russian_Smolensk @ 5.27
13 83.2% North_German + 16.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 5.28
14 80.9% Southeast_English + 19.1% Polish @ 5.33
15 83.2% Southwest_English + 16.8% Belorussian @ 5.39
16 84% Southeast_English + 16% Belorussian @ 5.39
17 67.3% West_Scottish + 32.7% Austrian @ 5.39
18 73.2% Southeast_English + 26.8% Austrian @ 5.41
19 69.4% Norwegian + 30.6% French_Basque @ 5.42
20 80.3% Southwest_English + 19.7% Polish @ 5.42

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... -graveyard

"The haunting mystery of Britain's headless Romans may have been solved at last, thanks to scars from a lion's bite and hammer marks on decapitated skulls.

The results of forensic work, announced today, on more than 80 skeletons of well-built young men, gradually exhumed from the gardens of a York terrace over a decade, suggests that the world's best-preserved gladiator graveyard has been found.

Many of the 1,800-year-old remains indicate much stronger muscles in the right arm, a condition noted by Roman writers in slaves trained from their teens to fight in the arena. Advanced mineral testing of tooth enamel also links the men to a wide variety of Roman provinces, including North Africa, which was another a feature of gladiator recruitment."

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:00 am
The autosomal K15 profile of this York ancient dna sample shows that he was a native Briton because this dna profile is good for at least 10 generations according to the autosomal experts. I compared my K15 profile to the DF98 guy and my autosomal dna profile is 100% Isles and is right with my paper trail. He was probably a captured Briton who resisted Roman rule and was forced to fight as a gladiator. And Scotland has a lot of diverse DF98 branches and haplotypes.

Kit T752812 DF 98 1,800 ybp
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.4% West_Scottish + 8.6% Chechen @ 4.25
2 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% North_Ossetian @ 4.34
3 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% Adygei @ 4.44
4 91.9% West_Scottish + 8.1% Kabardin @ 4.44
5 91.3% West_Scottish + 8.7% Tabassaran @ 4.46
6 91.6% West_Scottish + 8.4% Lezgin @ 4.46
7 92.4% West_Scottish + 7.6% Ossetian @ 4.47
8 92.1% Irish + 7.9% Chechen @ 4.51
9 92.2% West_Scottish + 7.8% Balkar @ 4.52
10 91.7% Irish + 8.3% Tabassaran @ 4.56
11 93.6% West_Scottish + 6.4% Abhkasian @ 4.57
12 92.2% Irish + 7.8% Lezgin @ 4.62
13 93% Irish + 7% North_Ossetian @ 4.66
14 93.4% West_Scottish + 6.6% Georgian @ 4.67
15 92.7% Irish + 7.3% Kabardin @ 4.72
16 93.1% Irish + 6.9% Ossetian @ 4.72
17 93% Irish + 7% Adygei @ 4.72
18 92.3% West_Scottish + 7.7% Kumyk @ 4.77
19 93% Irish + 7% Balkar @ 4.79
20 94..2% Irish + 5.8% Abhkasian @ 4.84

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:12 am
DF98 is present in the Isles but also in German world. DF96 idem. In this case DF98 seems from Scotland, but DF96 from German world. But you are R-A9845 present in to-day Welsh people not before 250 AD and Irish ones not before 700 AD. These are the data. I think that from these data it will be difficult that you’ll find samples of his ancestors in the Isles before that date. If you’ll find them, I’ll be glad. But we need certain data, and not inferences or presuppositions.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:40 am
Gioiello wrote:DF98 is present in the Isles but also in German world. DF96 idem. In this case DF98 seems from Scotland, but DF96 from German world. But you are R-A9845 present in to-day Welsh people not before 250 AD and Irish ones not before 700 AD. These are the data. I think that from these data it will be difficult that you’ll find samples of his ancestors in the Isles before that date. If you’ll find them, I’ll be glad. But we need certain data, and not inferences or presuppositions.


Gio
You are wrong on two counts. I was not talking about my Y-line. I was referring to my autosomal dna profile at 10 generations and referring to the DF98 York man's autosomal profile at 10 generations.

A9845 is only found in Irish testers at present and not found in any Welsh samples . The Welsh tester that you wrongly referred to belongs to a yet undefined branch and he is not the only one. There are a number of divergent branches in Wales and he is not A9845+. The 250 AD formed date that you quote for A9845 is a guess estimate from Yfull.

The data will come when the 1,000 ancient dna samples that are being tested by Dr. Reich at present from southern Britain, before and after the Roman era, are made public. You and others will get your eyes opened.

You infer a lot from modern dna testers that you find in Italy. Mr Eurogenes writes that there was no R1b in Italy until the BA.
Last edited by dartraighe on Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:07 am, edited 4 times in total.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:20 pm
We are all waiting for DNA from Ireland, Italy and everywhere. Of course I am not glad that these data depend from Reich, Pinhasi, Behar, Poznik, etc.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:02 pm
Gioiello wrote:We are all waiting for DNA from Ireland, Italy and everywhere. Of course I am not glad that these data depend from Reich, Pinhasi, Behar, Poznik, etc.



The scientists are not going to test one million samples to verify the likely origin of every YDNA branch in Europe. So another way will have to be found.


And I was looking at your ydna Italian match who you share 15 YSNPs with and Yfull shows it within 2,000 years. The Welsh cluster and I share 18 YSNPs but Yfull says within 1,250 years. There are 15 YSNPs that I do not share with the Welsh and that is within 1,750 years. So that needs to be looked at.


If you or I cannot break down these 15 and 18 YSNP blocks then we will have to accept it was single line of decent for that period in our specific Y-lines. You cannot verify the place that the bottleneck took place. You can assume that yours was Italy and perhaps mine was in either Wales or Ireland. No-one can prove us right or wrong.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:30 pm
Of course there are many problems with the YFull dates. I have a link with Italian Cinque, and YFull gives 15 SNPs in common below the upstream subclades, whereas FTDNA gives 16 SNPs. I have to control all that, as I did of the link between Milani, from Bergamo, Italy, Venzin from Switzerland, but he is a Rumantsch, and a Georgian Jew. I published my opinion about that, and it seems that these three haplotypes separated pretty in the same time around 4300 years ago. Thus two subclades in the Alpine zone and the other in a Jew, but of Georgian origin, and we cannot exclude that he is a Georgian introgresed in the Jewish pool, even more that there is another Georgian linked to me in my subclade SK2097. That R-Z2110 may have come from Italy is very likely, because Italy has samples in all the subclades known so far. Also the guy from Kuwait, who seemed to get only the oldest SNP FGC24408, now has 11 SNPs in common with a Sicilian, La Duca. And also the subclade CTS699 has an Italian (Tatulli from Apulia), and two Sardinians, and the Jews have to be classified, because the numerous SNPs found in the R1a Levites paper of Behat who tested them for first, I demonstrated being fake and only 4 were reliable, thus these Jewish haplotypes could be also very recent and introgressed.
Beyond that, the age that YFull gives between me and Cinque at 3000 years ago, are due only to the mean between my 4000 years and his 2000, only because I have been tested with the best test, FGC, and Cinque from the mediocre Big Y.
Also the Bulgarian Nochev, who seemed to bring the hg to the Balkans, belongs now to a subclade with a Spaniard and an Englishman.
To clarify two haplotypes in Russia, but they should be tested with an NGS and not with the FTDNA packs. But many other Italians there are. I’d be very surprised if Dritte Reich didn’t find R-Z2110 and R-L51-PF7589 in aDNA from Italy.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:58 pm
Gioiello wrote:Of course there are many problems with the YFull dates. I have a link with Italian Cinque, and YFull gives 15 SNPs in common below the upstream subclades, whereas FTDNA gives 16 SNPs. I have to control all that, as I did of the link between Milani, from Bergamo, Italy, Venzin from Switzerland, but he is a Rumantsch, and a Georgian Jew. I published my opinion about that, and it seems that these three haplotypes separated pretty in the same time around 4300 years ago. Thus two subclades in the Alpine zone and the other in a Jew, but of Georgian origin, and we cannot exclude that he is a Georgian introgresed in the Jewish pool, even more that there is another Georgian linked to me in my subclade SK2097. That R-Z2110 may have come from Italy is very likely, because Italy has samples in all the subclades known so far. Also the guy from Kuwait, who seemed to get only the oldest SNP FGC24408, now has 11 SNPs in common with a Sicilian, La Duca. And also the subclade CTS699 has an Italian (Tatulli from Apulia), and two Sardinians, and the Jews have to be classified, because the numerous SNPs found in the R1a Levites paper of Behat who tested them for first, I demonstrated being fake and only 4 were reliable, thus these Jewish haplotypes could be also very recent and introgressed.
Beyond that, the age that YFull gives between me and Cinque at 3000 years ago, are due only to the mean between my 4000 years and his 2000, only because I have been tested with the best test, FGC, and Cinque from the mediocre Big Y.
Also the Bulgarian Nochev, who seemed to bring the hg to the Balkans, belongs now to a subclade with a Spaniard and an Englishman.
To clarify two haplotypes in Russia, but they should be tested with an NGS and not with the FTDNA packs. But many other Italians there are. I’d be very surprised if Dritte Reich didn’t find R-Z2110 and R-L51-PF7589 in aDNA from Italy.



Clicking on info at the Z2110 level gives the number of YSNPs for every sample. A lot of testers have done okay with the number of YSNPs they got from their Big Y tests. The Polish sample ERR1395575 has the most. Yfull needs to revise their TMRCA's and find a more accurate method. It can be done.

Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:24 am
Getting back to the DF98 Gladiator. There is a lot of DF98 in the Isles that are not at Yfull. Even the U106 dna project does not have all the samples.

My point was that it is okay to say that the DF98 York Gladiator's ancestors were in Britain 2,100 ybp. I think that most modern testers would be able to trace their ancestry back 300 years, and some can even go further back. Living dna seems to be able to do a good job on testers who have ancestry within the Isles. A lot say that their ancestry is in line with their paper trails.


Some tend to look at the ancient dna samples in a way that suggests that they were all recent migrants. When the York samples were made public some posters were coming up with different scenarios for the DF98 and DF96 but not for the P312 samples. The Scythian scy009's autosomal profile shows that his ancestry was close to the Ukrainian population which may suggest that he was not a recent migrant.

If all the 90 York remains could have been tested there could have been as many as 20 Z156 among them. TCD had a good article about these samples which suggested that six out of the seven were natives. No-one disputed the authenticity of the sample with the southern European autosomal dna.

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