In Search of Norman Genes

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

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I1*
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U5a1b4
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:41 pm
Yorkie wrote:As always, Sam, a very thoughtful and cogent contribution. I do see your points here.

Your insightful analysis of your own origins makes sense. In my case, whilst it is true that I have documented Norman ancestry on both sides, I also have East Anglian and southern English [London] ancestry alongside Yorkshire so maybe the pull to the south is in part due to these variables too? I don't have your 'exotic' element, but one thing maybe worth considering too is a possible Huguenot element. I have 2 Huguenot lines, and I seem to recall that you have at least one- these don't add up to a deal but when added to other variables they may contribute to our mutual 'English with a pull to northern France' plotting on McDonald.

I definately think that Norman genetic input has been underestimated by some of the well-known 'celebrity' population geneticists such as Sykes and Oppenheimer. Sykes, for example, just seems to consider incidences of R1a1a in men with Norman surnames in the south of England. To say that this is a limited approach would be an understatement. Aside from looking at other haplogroups, and considering the north of England [especially Cheshire- 'the seedplot of gentility'], and the marcher lands of Wales and Scotland, Sykes seems unware that there are examples of significant levels of Norman immigration in certain parts of the country. A good example is the level of Breton-Norman settlement in Lincolnshire towns such as Louth and Boston [Reaney's 'A Dictionary of English Surnames', 1995 edition, Oxford].


I think you are perfectly right in regards to the effect of your own Norman and Huguenot ancestry - I can see how it would create the effect you see on your plot. That's a good point about Huguenot ancestry - Well i don't remember that i have any known Huguenot ancestry, but i'll certainly keep my eyes open for it! Although i would say that i might have a significant pull to northern France, it's impossible to tell as such because it's likely subsumed with my pull to the Middle-east/North Africa - but i think as i said before in terms of genaeology that component is a bit smaller than my differentiation from the average, so likely my known ancestry is more continental than average, and a pull to northern France is likely part of that. Although there is a fair possibility (for which there is potential evidence) that my unknown ancestry is Italian, which might change things somewhat in terms of my known ancestry and n Doug's graph - i haven't considered that much lately, but perhaps i should. Hmm looking again at what Doug gave me in terms of possibilities, in regards to the genaeological time-frame Egyptian and Moroccan fit the best, quite interesting too:

English= 0.933 Egyptian= 0.067
English= 0.945 Moroccan= 0.055

Most likely for non middle-eastern ancestry:
English= 0.822 Tuscan= 0.178

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Norman contribution has been underestimated - there appears to be significant overlap or closeness between parts of southern England and northern France, and i think to say the English channel would have been a barrier between northern France and southern England during the Norman period and later i think would be quite incorrect too, as well as the areas of settlement that you mention. I think the Normans could well be a major factor in that, not the only one - but i do agree in that i think their impact has been underestimated. We definitely need another study of the Norman surnames - I mean looking just for R1a1a in a population that most likely had significantly less of it than Scandinavia is very limited as you say. Maybe a comparison of Norman-derived surnames from known settlement areas vs non-Norman from areas not really settled, or something similar?

Kind Regards,
Sam Jackson
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Location: Western Colorado
YDNA:
J-L147.1 J1c3d L1253
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:43 pm
I am not sure just what I expect my Walk Through Y test to show but it is due any time. If the the FTDNA Graham group is correct and William de Graham is the 1st Scotish Graham and a Scotish Norman transplant and as a J1c3d that might add to the Norman melting pot of interesting folks brought to England/Scotland/Ireland by and after the conquest.
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama

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Location: England
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:16 am
Gato wrote:I am not sure just what I expect my Walk Through Y test to show but it is due any time. If the the FTDNA Graham group is correct and William de Graham is the 1st Scotish Graham and a Scotish Norman transplant and as a J1c3d that might add to the Norman melting pot of interesting folks brought to England/Scotland/Ireland by and after the conquest.


Interesting that you mention William de Graham because he was the subject of some debate on the former DNA Forums. One poster thought that de Graham was Flemish-Norman, though I don't recall any cogent evidence for this claim.

My view, for what it is worth, is that de Graham might have actually been Breton-Norman in descent. I say so because there is evidence from Reaney and Wilson's [1995 edition] 'A Dictionary of English Surnames' [Oxford] that the first Scots Graham, 'took with him the Norman form of his surname which derives from Grantham [Lincolnshire]' [p.202]. His is a case similar to ones that Marmaduke and I referred to earlier in this thread; Normans who adopted versions of English placenames as their surnames. The Norman element in Lincolnshire was largely Breton-Norman, especially in relation to the towns of Louth and Boston. The Breton settlement in Lincolnshire was considerable, and far more than the establishment of a few score knights and sergeants in military tenancies. As the authors suggest, this was a small-scale Breton-Norman migration. In 12th century Lincolnshire, Alan was as common a name as Simon, and more popular than Henry and Adam. Other common Breton- Norman names were Brian, Conan, Jarnegon, Justin, Mengi, Samson and Tengi, all surviving in bastardised forms as modern surnames.So, it is a strong possibility that de Graham hailed from Brittany, given the massive predominance of the Breton element in this English county, as was the case with the Richmond area of north Yorkshire and Suffolk.
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Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:23 pm
Location: Western Colorado
YDNA:
J-L147.1 J1c3d L1253
MtDNA:
H
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:17 pm
WTY...Humm my WTY test was estimated to be completed on 4-30 has now been put off until 7-02. Que paso FT?
Y J1c3d P58+ L147.1+ L222- 174- Z644- Z640- Z644- +L1252 +L1253 L1279- Z1884+ CTS5857-
FTDNA N42042
Oldest Y ancestor:
Archebald Graham, father of David b. Dec. 23, 1647 in Edinburgh, Scotland
Oldest Mt: My mother's grandmother on her Mother's side: Sonicooie b +- 1743 CNE [Cherokee Nation East]was father to Soniovie [Susannah] Sonicooie
My mother's grandmother on her father's side was 1/2 Creek Indian from Alabama
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YDNA:
Pat-R-P312-DF27+
MtDNA:
Mat-U5b1d1 PatMt-A2
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:40 pm
My grandfather was Binford who descended from Bienfaite. Some of our close relatives that are Binford tested and came back I2. I know my Bienfaites were from Normandy
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine

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Location: England
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:11 pm
Diana Sotela wrote:My grandfather was Binford who descended from Bienfaite. Some of our close relatives that are Binford tested and came back I2. I know my Bienfaites were from Normandy


Hi Diana,
I'm really glad that you've changed your avatar picture- that arachnid one scared the hell out of me :( , but the new one is lovely :D .

Do you have a paper-trail to Normandy for your grandfather? Some Binfords may be from Bienfaite and others from Binneford in Crediton, Sandford in Devonshire, England.
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YDNA:
Pat-R-P312-DF27+
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Mat-U5b1d1 PatMt-A2
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:52 pm
Yorkie wrote:
Diana Sotela wrote:My grandfather was Binford who descended from Bienfaite. Some of our close relatives that are Binford tested and came back I2. I know my Bienfaites were from Normandy


Hi Diana,
I'm really glad that you've changed your avatar picture- that arachnid one scared the hell out of me :( , but the new one is lovely :D .

Yes, creeepy, thanks for noticing!


Do you have a paper-trail to Normandy for your grandfather? Some Binfords may be from Bienfaite and others from Binneford in Crediton, Sandford in Devonshire, England.


My mom and I are working on this now. Of course it was passed down orally from generation to generation that our name was Bienfaite. Our paper trail ends with Joseph L. Binford 1604 in Kent, England. We are working on the next step but it's hard as my grandfather said the name underwent several changes from Bienfaite. Bienforte, Benforte, Benfort, Benford, Binford. I'm trying to figure out when and with which person. My mom said my great Auntie had a family heirloom lapel pin that said "Bienfaite" on it. When she was a child she asked her Auntie what it was and got the story. The Binfords who eventually came to the USA were Quakers. My Binfords have the strange eyelids that fold over. I believe they use the word Epicanthal? I have pictures to show. My Grandfather was Binford and his mother was Annesley and I DO have the paper trail on that one! We don't know if the De Annesleys were Norman or not. Something tells me they were because of their association and the people they came with into England.
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine

Posts: 493
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Location: England
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:30 pm
Diana Sotela wrote:
Yorkie wrote:
Diana Sotela wrote:My grandfather was Binford who descended from Bienfaite. Some of our close relatives that are Binford tested and came back I2. I know my Bienfaites were from Normandy


Hi Diana,
I'm really glad that you've changed your avatar picture- that arachnid one scared the hell out of me :( , but the new one is lovely :D .

Yes, creeepy, thanks for noticing!


Do you have a paper-trail to Normandy for your grandfather? Some Binfords may be from Bienfaite and others from Binneford in Crediton, Sandford in Devonshire, England.


My mom and I are working on this now. Of course it was passed down orally from generation to generation that our name was Bienfaite. Our paper trail ends with Joseph L. Binford 1604 in Kent, England. We are working on the next step but it's hard as my grandfather said the name underwent several changes from Bienfaite. Bienforte, Benforte, Benfort, Benford, Binford. I'm trying to figure out when and with which person. My mom said my great Auntie had a family heirloom lapel pin that said "Bienfaite" on it. When she was a child she asked her Auntie what it was and got the story. The Binfords who eventually came to the USA were Quakers. My Binfords have the strange eyelids that fold over. I believe they use the word Epicanthal? I have pictures to show. My Grandfather was Binford and his mother was Annesley and I DO have the paper trail on that one! We don't know if the De Annesleys were Norman or not. Something tells me they were because of their association and the people they came with into England.


Good luck with your work on the Binford/Bienfaite name.

Regarding Annesley, I don't know much about the family name but it may be possible that a cadet branch of a Norman family adopted the English placename as a surname, as is the case with Sutton in east Cheshire which became the name of a cadet branch of the Davenports, I believe. I have some information on Annesley that you may or may not have, but here goes..

From Reaney and Wilson [1995: 12] 'A Dictionary of English Surnames' [Oxford]; Annesley/Ansley is 'from Annesley [Nottinghamshire] or Ansley [Warwickshire]'. The name itself is Old English rather than Norman French but as I say previously, that does not mean that the Annesleys were not Norman and may be a cadet branch. The first record of the name in England was one Reginald de Aneslega in 1176, contained in the Pipe Rolls for Nottinghamshire.

The thing to do now is to research if there was a landed family in Nottinghamshire called de Annesley, and see if there are any pedigrees that may connect to a known ancestor.
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:55 pm
I have all the records for the Annesleys and they were awarded Annesley Hall in Nottinghamshire. Thanks to my mothers years of research to put a tree together.
That is the line my family came from. My Great Grandmother is Mattie Ansley. If you were to ask my Grandfather what is ethnicity was he would have told you 100% French. Probably not knowing that Norman wasn't really all French.

Reginald DeAnnesley
Your 23rd great grandfather
Birth 1106 in Nottinghamshire, England
Death 1176 in Nottinghamshire, England

This is Reginalds great grandfather!

Ralf fitzEudo De Brito Tatersal Lord of Crich
Your 26th great grandfather
Birth
Death

The House of Annesley began in the Notts village of ANNESLEY, so named for a Celtic chieftain ("Anna" who owned a meadow, called a "lea", in old English). The initial person to take the name Annesley as a surname was from the noble family of Fitz-Hubert de Normandy, one of whom (Richard de Brito,) came to England with William The Conqueror and participated in the Battle of Hastings in 1066 AD. The land of Annesley was his reward, in about 1067. The family were first recorded in the Domesday Book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uo9AAA ... ys&f=false

There supposedly was a Binford family bible of which we cannot find. We think when one of my grandfathers brothers passed that one of the cousins got a hold of it. None of them are talking!

Now if you look at the DNA of the Anneselys, it's all mixed up. I suspect more than a few non parental events there! http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ans ... n=yresults
Last edited by Diana Sotela on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine
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Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:53 am

YDNA:
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Mat-U5b1d1 PatMt-A2
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:15 am
Image

My grandfather who is Binford/Annesley is in the very top right with my grandmother.

All the men are his brothers.

The two elderly couple Is Grandaddy Binford on the left next to his wife Mattie Annesley. Both children of Preachers, both from Quaker families.
Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? . . . And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?
~
Confessions of St. Augustine
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