What does the paper of Afghan Y demonstrate?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:15 pm
What does the paper of Afghan Y demonstrate?
Marc Haber et al., Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events, (PLoS ONE doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

1) the flop of every Dienekes’ theory about Greeks expanded West or East of Greece.
“Greek populations are not homogeneous in their haplogroup E frequencies, so it would be useful to consider the possibility that the lack of this frequent Southeastern European haplogroup in South Asia may not reflect a complete lack of Greek influence in this region, but rather, an influence from a structured ancient Greek population”. Not for nothing we call “on the Greek calends” what is delayed to a time that will never come.

2) “Paucity of R1b, except in a couple Uzbeks and a Tajik” says Dienekes. Actually there are 3 R1b1a2* M269 (xU106) (32,35, 181), really R-L23+, the only one diffused in Middle East, which have nothing to do with the European subclades, and 2 R1b1a* P297 (xM269) (26,134), really R-M73, both the same haplotype.

This makes very unlikely that hg.R1b was born in Central Asia and even less in the Iranian or Caucasian region.

Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:04 pm
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:18 pm
Gioiello wrote:What does the paper of Afghan Y demonstrate?
Marc Haber et al., Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events, (PLoS ONE doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)
....
2) “Paucity of R1b, except in a couple Uzbeks and a Tajik” says Dienekes. Actually there are 3 R1b1a2* M269 (xU106) (32,35, 181), really R-L23+, the only one diffused in Middle East, which have nothing to do with the European subclades, and 2 R1b1a* P297 (xM269) (26,134), really R-M73, both the same haplotype.

This makes very unlikely that hg.R1b was born in Central Asia and even less in the Iranian or Caucasian region.


So, Balkh, Mazar-e Sharif is European??
sam
R1b-V88 & H1e(3?)

Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom
YDNA:
R2a*-M124 (xL295)
MtDNA:
D4j*
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:07 am
I have written a blog entry on the topic.

Vaêdhya - Showcasing of Y-DNA Variation Among Afghan Ethnic Groups

Regarding the R1b subclades;

R1b1a*-P297 (xM269) and R1b1a2*-M269 (xU106) both appear in Uzbek and Tajik populations. Both the R1b1a*-P297 haplotypes are identical and belong to a Tajik and Uzbek, again showing there is some recent paternal overlap between Central Asian ethnic groups. I discovered the haplotype does not generally correspond with any of the established clusters in the R1b1a1-M73 Project, although there is a 13/15 match with a Tajik from Cluster B1. Although the limited STR's are unfavourable, I am of the opinion the match is substantial and the R1b1a*-P297 reported in this study is in fact R1b1a1-M73 and belongs to Cluster B1, whose membership also consists of other Tajiks, Uzbeks and an Anatolian Turk.


In other words, Gioiello is correct. The R1b1a*-P297 haplotype is likely R1b1a1-M73.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:02 pm
Sam, the data are these: Afghanistan gets a little bit hg. R1b1a2, whereas it gets all the other Middle Easterner or Asian haplogroups, then that the subclades from R1b1* to the most diffused European subclades were born there is very unlikely and then no link with Gedrosia and Indo-European languages from there.

Three R-L23+ of Eastern haplotype and 2 R-M73+ of the Asian haplotype (but there is also an European haplotype I have written a lot about and I esteem more varied and more ancient) are actually very few. And we should clear what DMXX does mean when he says in his blog that ”R*-M207 [and other haplogroups] indicate that Afghanistan played an important role in the demic development of their downstream subclades, or was at the very least a geographic nexus”.
The haplogroup R*-M207 (xM173,M124) (and another sample from Sengupta et a. (2006-07) and another from Firasal et al. (2007)) demonstrates its presence there, being probably born in Central Asia like Q*, but it doesn’t demonstrate anything about the subclades, being ancient and diffused all over the world, till South Africa. There are a few samples on the R* Project at FTDNA (153984, Noorani, Pakistan; N63448, Badakhshani, Tajikistan; N65097, Ranjit, India; N77374, Unknown origin; N16491 Sri Lanka) and other three I have found on SMGF, one of them from Italy: ySearch UE7XB (Greselle, Italy); ZJDXQ (Anonymous from Pakistan); JNB58 (Anonymous from China).
The same DMXX says about the R-M269 found in Central Asia: “How did these lineages arrive to Central Asia? Is recent colonial admixture a possibility?”

I have demonstrated ad abundantiam in the past that the R1b1* of Middle East aren’t the ancestor of the European subclades, having YCAII= 21-23 or 23-23 and not 18-23 (or 18-22) which is the ancestor of R1b1a2-M269. The last paper about the presence of African mt-s in Europe from at least 11,000YBP due to European colonization of North Africa and the coming back to Europe has given another chance to my theory that R1b1* (yours) migrated to North Africa by sea from Italy (or Iberia), theory that also Fulvio Cruciani took in consideration, and this last paper could be a proof.

Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: United Kingdom
YDNA:
R2a*-M124 (xL295)
MtDNA:
D4j*
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:14 pm
Gioiello wrote:And we should clear what DMXX does mean when he says in his blog that ”R*-M207 [and other haplogroups] indicate that Afghanistan played an important role in the demic development of their downstream subclades, or was at the very least a geographic nexus”.


"...played an important role in the demic development of their downstream subclades"; Afghanistan had the environmental criterion present for population growth and differentiation within Haplogroup R to occur for an unspecified (but presumably long, say several millennia) length of time.

"...a geographic nexus"; Afghanistan only served as a crossroads for which the prehistoric bearers of Haplogroup R skirted across the country to grow and differentiate into the clades we see today (R1 and R2). You surmised this point, incidentally, with the following;

The haplogroup R*-M207 (xM173,M124) (and another sample from Sengupta et a. (2006-07) and another from Firasal et al. (2007)) demonstrates its presence there, being probably born in Central Asia like Q*, but it doesn’t demonstrate anything about the subclades, being ancient and diffused all over the world, till South Africa.


The same DMXX says about the R-M269 found in Central Asia: “How did these lineages arrive to Central Asia? Is recent colonial admixture a possibility?”


I have not yet examined the R1b1a2-M269 lineages, but the data presented "as is" - three R1b1a2-M269 lineages that are U106- with 17 STR's - Would make it quite difficult to make the case either for autochthonous or recent foreign origins.

It would have been far more ideal for Haber et al. to have utilized L23, L50, or any other upstream marker for that matter. Vineviz (he may correct me if he is present) once opined over a year ago on DNA-Forums that several of his Central Asian R1b-M269's gave him reason to believe ancient Jewish ancestry was a possibility. I suppose the U106- result allows that (as well as any other explanation for R1b-M269 appearing in Central Asia during ancient times) to remain a possibility. Particularly as you are suggesting these haplotypes are in fact R1b1a2-L23.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:02 pm
What are you asking to Vineviz? It is better he keeps away. See the last mess about the LoPiccolo haplotype, I have spoken about a lot on other forums. Also at FTDNA they continue to misunderstand L50 and S136 (my final SNP): L50 is a mutation on rs13303711, my S136 (tested by EthnoAncestry) is a deletion of 9bp in the same region. Anyway these SNPs have no meaning in our discussion, because they are recent and don’t say anything about the most ancient R-L23.
It would be interesting to test these R-L23-s for L584, diffused amongst the Eastern R-L23. Anyway the last tests have demonstrated that L584 has nothing to do with the supposed “ten tribes”. I have already said that Middle East has many R-L23 (many of them are also L584), but they have nothing to do with the Western European subclades. Anyway they are above all Armenians (in Armenia and nearby), and could have come to East from the Balkans, where Armenians came from. There isn’t any R-L51, the ancestor of all the Western European subclades, which reaches the 4% in Italy, and 0,3% out of it, Eastward and Westward. For this I am saying from many years that R1b1a2 and subclades comes from Italy, or anyway Western Europe. If it would be true that these haplogroups, from R1b1a2-M269 to all the subclades, were born in Middle East, we should have found in Afghanistan more haplotypes, and above all the pathway of the whole haplogroup, which lacks in all Middle East, and it is present in Italy and Western Europe. Of course the proof will be the aDNA, and my critics say that the most ancient R1b in Western Europe is 3000 years old, but do you know a most ancient R1b found elsewhere?

Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:41 pm
DMXX wrote:It would have been far more ideal for Haber et al. to have utilized L23, L50, or any other upstream marker for that matter. Vineviz (he may correct me if he is present) once opined over a year ago on DNA-Forums that several of his Central Asian R1b-M269's gave him reason to believe ancient Jewish ancestry was a possibility. I suppose the U106- result allows that (as well as any other explanation for R1b-M269 appearing in Central Asia during ancient times) to remain a possibility. Particularly as you are suggesting these haplotypes are in fact R1b1a2-L23.


Ancient Jewish ancestry is really a possbility? Ancient as in how long ago? I doubt there were any Jews in Central Asia when during Andronovo times and Early Indo-Iranian diffusion days.


Gioiello wrote:What are you asking to Vineviz? It is better he keeps away. See the last mess about the LoPiccolo haplotype, I have spoken about a lot on other forums. Also at FTDNA they continue to misunderstand L50 and S136 (my final SNP): L50 is a mutation on rs13303711, my S136 (tested by EthnoAncestry) is a deletion of 9bp in the same region. Anyway these SNPs have no meaning in our discussion, because they are recent and don’t say anything about the most ancient R-L23.
It would be interesting to test these R-L23-s for L584, diffused amongst the Eastern R-L23. Anyway the last tests have demonstrated that L584 has nothing to do with the supposed “ten tribes”. I have already said that Middle East has many R-L23 (many of them are also L584), but they have nothing to do with the Western European subclades. Anyway they are above all Armenians (in Armenia and nearby), and could have come to East from the Balkans, where Armenians came from. There isn’t any R-L51, the ancestor of all the Western European subclades, which reaches the 4% in Italy, and 0,3% out of it, Eastward and Westward. For this I am saying from many years that R1b1a2 and subclades comes from Italy, or anyway Western Europe. If it would be true that these haplogroups, from R1b1a2-M269 to all the subclades, were born in Middle East, we should have found in Afghanistan more haplotypes, and above all the pathway of the whole haplogroup, which lacks in all Middle East, and it is present in Italy and Western Europe. Of course the proof will be the aDNA, and my critics say that the most ancient R1b in Western Europe is 3000 years old, but do you know a most ancient R1b found elsewhere?



How would you explain the M269 in the middle east then? It def did not come from Italy and go to the middle east.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:01 pm
Newtoboard says: “How would you explain the M269 in the middle east then? It def did not come from Italy and go to the middle east”.

“Def”: does it mean “definitely”? Then: it is overwhelmingly demonstrated that Jews get many R haplotypes, but pretty all belong to young haplotypes with a MRCA not older than 1000 years. What does it mean? Probably that they are introgressed single persons. The other explication is the theory of the bottleneck which would have killed the most part of them. Anyway any pathway which would demonstrate an ancient presence of these haplogroups lacks. Then we should investigate every haplogroup and every haplotype.
Let’s consider Jewish R-M269*. If you look at the Jewish R-M269* in the “ht 35 project” it is easy demonstrable that they belong to the same haplotype and have a recent common ancestor. The rule is confirmed.
They go from Gdala (Blacher) to Eli Gershko Shor. Already Crenson, believed of Jewish origin but I think without any reason, belongs to another haplotype. Then there was only one person R-M269* introgressed. Where did he come from?
Probably if you read the paper about Jewish autosome

http://www.biology-direct.com/content/5/1/57

you have some indication as where to look for.

Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:07 pm
Since when does Jews =Middle Eastern.

You think the vast amounts of R1b-M269 in the Druze, Assyrians, Iranians, Armenians, Anatolians is from Italy?

Bold statement. And very much a fringe theory.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:27 pm
I was speaking of single haplogroups and haplotypes. If we consider R-M269*, my theory is that it arose from an R1b1* (we haven’t find so far for what I know any R-P297*) with YCAII=18-23 (or the sister-clade 18-22), present in Western Europe (both only in Italy) and not in Middle East and the Italian clade with YCAII with 17-23 is the most ancient witness. My theory also presupposes that the Italian Mangino (actually the Tuscan Mancini), put erroneously amongst the R-M269* in the “ht 35 project”, if he is really tested M269*, like FTDNA says, having an haplotype closer to R1b1* than to R-M269*, is probably the first of an intermediate SNP between R1b1* and R-M269*, demonstrating , like the Italian Romitti, one out of two L150- found so far, where is the pathway of this haplogroup, i.e. in Italy. Of course any letter I wrote to the same Mangino, to Vizachero by offering a contribute of mine for testing him again (and how much would be interesting an FTY or other?) hadn’t so far any reply. But I have, in Tuscany, many relatives of him and I am ready to test them by another company.

Return to General DNA Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron