Bell Beakers in Ireland

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:44 pm
http://charles-mount.ie/wp/index.php/th ... n-ireland/
"Cist graves without Beaker
At Brackagh, Co. Derry a a small sub-rectangular cairn that was enclosed by 11 posts covered a pair of stone cists, one rectangular and the other octagonal, within a figure of eight stone setting. The octagonal cist contained the cremated remains of two adults that were dated to 2620-2485 cal. BC. The rectangular cist also contained the cremated remains of two individuals dated to 2485-2342 cal BC. There were no artefact associations with the burials. These cist burials highlight the possibility that other cists containing cremations but no associated artefacts may also date to the Beaker period."

About the author

"Dr. Charles Mount has been involved in research on the Irish Bronze Age for more than twenty years and has published extensively on the burials, monuments and artefacts of the period. This blog post is based on research he is preparing for a book on the period. You can read more of Dr. Mount’s publications here ."

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:57 am
https://www.evensi.uk/fine-objects-in-a ... /189025432

Friday 2 December 2016 7:00 PM Friday 2 December 2016 9:00 PM

"COME AND JOIN US FOR AN INTERESTING TALK BY DR VOLKER HEYD, READER IN PREHISTORIC ARCHAEOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF BRISTOL.
Recent results from archaeological excavations and various sciences are about to alter our models describing the European Bell Beaker phenomenon and challenge established previous insights.

The author will present the current state of understanding and set out to explain the wider picture of events between east and west of Europe in the late fourth and first half of the third millennium BC contributing to the emergence, expansion and establishing of Bell Beakers.


For further information contact the Museum on 01305 756827 or check the website on http://www.dorsetcountymuseum.org or follow us on Facebook Dorset County Museum and Twitter"

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:34 pm
Gioiello
We have to wait for a couple of months for the BB results. The BB results are not going to help to bridge the gap from R1b Villabruna to R1b BB. We have been waiting ten years for 200 Mesolithic and 200 Neolithic results from west Europe but they are not even in the pipeline.




http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2016/12/be ... -soon.html

"Reporting back on the lecture on Bell Beaker by Volker Heyd this evening in Dorchester. The expected two aDNA papers on Bell Beaker have been delayed for the best possible reason. The two teams, one from Harvard and the other from Copenhagen, have agreed to amalgamate their results into one huge paper, which will give the results of over 200 samples. It is due to be published in a couple of months. Until then all the results are embargoed. Volker Heyd would only say that they are exciting.

He would also prefer me not to divulge everything he said at the lecture on the archaeological side, since he has a paper coming out in the March issue of Antiquity on Bell Beaker; while in the same issue will be one by Kristiansen on Corded Ware. So I'll be brief. He went through the various theories of the origins of Bell Beaker: the Dutch model prevalent until the 1990s, the change wrought by the Muller and Van Willigen radiocarbon date compilation of 2001 and subsequent publications of early dates in Iberia, the various attempts to make sense of an Iberian origin. The problem of the latter and of the idea of a North African origin are the same in his view. There is no prior usage of cord in pottery decoration of either. So he sticks by the Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture proposed in Harrison and Heyd 2007. The icing on the cake lies in two significant new discoveries, which are not entirely published as yet."

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:35 pm
I answered on "Eurogenes blog", also the post that Davidski deleted:

Gioiello said...
Davidski, I am here. Hope that this ha-tiqwah of Sam Huelsenrath ends like the mt H32 found in aDNA of Natufians and Iranians (clearly come from Western Europe, very likely from Italy).
December 3, 2016 at 12:22 AM
"Gioiello has left a new comment on the post ""Bell Beaker behemoth coming real soon"":

@ Onur
If you read previous posts in other threads, you do know that Sam Huelsenrath is known as Krefter, Fired hair, Sammy, Samuel Andrews, etc. but is the same Jew who lived (or lives) in Italy without having learned Italian without many mistakes, now it seems he is studying in a college of London, is a cousin of mine in his mt K1a1b1a (I am K1a1b1e) but he dislikes every origin that isn't old Jewish. Very likely isn't Jewish his mt, and I have Always said that a Jew isn't sure either with E or J. J was with I in the hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor and arrived in Middle East only recently (not before 5000 years ago).

Gioiello said...
@ Rob
If the new findings had confirmed previous theories, there wouldn't have been any surprise. Imagine something related to Italy, Southern France or also Northern-Western Europe.
December 3, 2016 at 2:29 AM

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:59 pm
Gioiello wrote:I answered on "Eurogenes blog", also the post that Davidski deleted:

Gioiello said...
Davidski, I am here. Hope that this ha-tiqwah of Sam Huelsenrath ends like the mt H32 found in aDNA of Natufians and Iranians (clearly come from Western Europe, very likely from Italy).
December 3, 2016 at 12:22 AM
"Gioiello has left a new comment on the post ""Bell Beaker behemoth coming real soon"":

@ Onur
If you read previous posts in other threads, you do know that Sam Huelsenrath is known as Krefter, Fired hair, Sammy, Samuel Andrews, etc. but is the same Jew who lived (or lives) in Italy without having learned Italian without many mistakes, now it seems he is studying in a college of London, is a cousin of mine in his mt K1a1b1a (I am K1a1b1e) but he dislikes every origin that isn't old Jewish. Very likely isn't Jewish his mt, and I have Always said that a Jew isn't sure either with E or J. J was with I in the hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor and arrived in Middle East only recently (not before 5000 years ago).

Gioiello said...
@ Rob


If the new findings had confirmed previous theories, there wouldn't have been any surprise. Imagine something related to Italy, Southern France or also Northern-Western Europe.
December 3, 2016 at 2:29 AM


Gioiello
These 200 BB samples will not solve the R1b puzzle. They will only prolong the debate for another ten years. They are making a mistake by tying autsomal dna with YDNA.

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:24 am
I think that it is right to say that the Bell Beaker Culture is the culture in which the ancestors of the people we know as the Celts originated. Celtic from the west looks correct also. The Celts must have moved through southern Poland ,Ukraine to Russia and that is probably the reason that we find Irish R1b links in these areas.



"This article (in: Материалы по Археологии и Истории Античного и Средневекового Крыма Археология, история, нумизматика, сфрагистика иэпиграфика. (Moscow State University) Севастополь Тюмень Нижневартовск 2015. pp. 50-58.) provides an overview of the latest linguistic, numismatic and archaeological evidence pertaining to the expansion of the La Tene culture into the area of modern Ukraine and the North Pontic region from the 3rd century BC onwards. A distinction is observed between the situation in western Ukraine where the process of Celtic migration / colonization is reflected in the archaeological evidence, and further east where the presence of Celtic “warrior bands” / mercenary groups has been identified. Testimony in ancient sources to the emergence of mixed Celto-Scythian populations in this area and their ultimate contribution to the complicated ethnogenesis of the early medieval peoples, including the Slavs, is also discussed."

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:01 pm
Sunday,Jan 15 2:42 PM.

https://app.core-apps.com/pag-2017/abst ... 54b2deb2a3
"Large longitudinal surveys of genomic diversity have uncovered two significant shifts in ancestry components in European samples. The first of these coincided with the onset of Neolithic culture and the second occurred in the third Millennium BC around the transition from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age. The scale of these changes imply massive population movements which may have coincided with the spread of new languages. However, whether genome change was universally associated with these cultural horizons is not yet known. This talk will present ancient genome data from southwest and eastern Europe, will contrast their patterns of longitudinal change and speculate about language origins."

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:55 am
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovat ... el-bradley
"In recent months, Bradley has collaborated on fascinating genomic projects like last November’s discovery of a new genetic strand of an ancient human European hunter-gatherer descendent.

Genomes discovered in Georgian caves revealed remains from two humans who lived in the Caucasus thousands of years apart, 13,300 and 9,700 years ago. Among the genomes sequenced was the first-ever sequencing of one from the Late Upper Palaeolithic period, with the results published in Nature Communications.

Elsewhere, 80 skeletons discovered in York a decade ago were only recently put through Bradley’s genome sequencing processes, with the results showing a multi-ethnic band of gladiators, hinting at a rich, diverse culture in the UK as recently as a couple of thousand years ago.

But this project promises to be more far-reaching for Bradley, with the international, historical angle providing the perfect platform for broader results."

Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:31 pm
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02 ... r-genomes/

Z2103 and L151 in Poland. They both have the wrong status, Z2103 and L151 is 6,000 years old not 4,400 ybp and could have spread from western Europe. The oldest bell beaker people are from Iberia .

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:12 pm
dartraighe wrote:https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02 ... r-genomes/

Z2103 and L151 in Poland. They both have the wrong status, Z2103 and L151 is 6,000 years old not 4,400 ybp and could have spread from western Europe. The oldest bell beaker people are from Iberia .


Read what I wrote about that. Very likely it is only an R-M269* like the others from Germany:

Sample ID HG 9084870

REFSEQ T

YF02873 R-FGC24408 G
YF11434 R-U152 T

Of course Genetiker should say if the sample has G or T, because only T is from the R-L151 line which brings to the subclades, in fact YFull says that
PF6540/YSC000082 (G>T)
YSC000082/PF6540 (T>G)
Above I am R1b1a2-L23-Z2110-FGC24408 and am G
All the R-U152 are T.
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