Bell Beakers in Ireland

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:54 pm
Gioiello wrote:Of course I expressed my point of view, and Maju has published that. Thank you to Maju!
Gioiello March 2, 2018 at 2:34 PM
Maju, that R-V88 came from Italy is now demonstrated: see the last paper of D'Atanasio (but read: Cruciani, the theorist of a Middle Eastern origin declared wrong now). With the next tree of YFull and FTDNA R-M343 will be clear that also R-L389+ came from Italy. You know where I think that R-L51 did come. Are you Always giving importance to these people (above) [Davidski, Chad Rohlfsen, Samuel Andrews and similar]?

Hope that he publishes also this:
Of course Chad should go to Chad in search of the R-V88 who brought the Chadian languages, as Mr Cruciani thought, but he was wrong and I was right: “Game over. Genetiker had the balls to admit he was wrong about R1b. After 1000 samples you should retire your "molecular clock", and French HG stuff. It's done”.

Of course Genetiker is doing a great contribute with his program for catching the calls, the best I know, long better than the Chad friends’, who publish useless peer reviewed papers. Genetiker said that he was wrong when he thought that the R1b were the Magdalenians, but for that giving reason to me: they came not from the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but from an Italian/Alpine refugium .That’s all, but it is useless to say that to Chad, who should go to Chad…


It looks like L51 originated in Italy and Z2103 in the Balkans. L21 in Britain. DF27 in Iberia and U152 in Italy. U106 has not been found in Germany yet and Austria could be the place of origin.

It is good news that DF27 does not belong to the BBC so now we are free to associate DF27 with an Iberian origin. Pots are not people. Also, we are free from the massive invasion tag from the Ukraine because U106 and DF27 were not part of any eastern BB invasion. And both groups were not part of the CWC. That means that U106 and DF27 belonged to some other early western European BA cultures.

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:49 am
There is small group of people writing at anthrogenica who are anti-Iberians. It comes through all of their posts. They did not like Prof. Sykes idea that R1b may have been an Ice-Age refugee from Iberia. Others have suggested an Alpine refuge for R1b. That isn't acceptable to the same anti-Iberian posters. To them the ancestor of modern R1b in western Europe must come from eastern Europe so that they can feel good about themselves. Continuity is not something they are comfortable with. But they will have to get used to it because the YDNA evidence does not support a Ukrainian origin for P312 and U106 who make up the majority of R1b in western Europe today. It is as simple as that. They can write about horses, the PIE and the autosomal dna until the end of time, but it is the YDNA trail that all R1b people in western Europe are interested in. There is nothing wrong with a Ukrainian origin for R1b P312 and u106 but the evidence is not there. The BBC originated in Iberia not in any part of eastern Europe.

Posts: 2400
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Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:28 am
dartraighe wrote:There is small group of people writing at anthrogenica who are anti-Iberians. It comes through all of their posts. They did not like Prof. Sykes idea that R1b may have been an Ice-Age refugee from Iberia. Others have suggested an Alpine refuge for R1b. That isn't acceptable to the same anti-Iberian posters. To them the ancestor of modern R1b in western Europe must come from eastern Europe so that they can feel good about themselves. Continuity is not something they are comfortable with. But they will have to get used to it because the YDNA evidence does not support a Ukrainian origin for P312 and U106 who make up the majority of R1b in western Europe today. It is as simple as that. They can write about horses, the PIE and the autosomal dna until the end of time, but it is the YDNA trail that all R1b people in western Europe are interested in. There is nothing wrong with a Ukrainian origin for R1b P312 and u106 but the evidence is not there. The BBC originated in Iberia not in any part of eastern Europe.


The question is simple. The theory of a Franco-Cantabrian Refugium of hg. R1b, supported from Sykes and others, linked to the Magdalenians (that was the theory also of Genetiker), failed with the first aDNA from there, where no R1b was found, but hg. C-V20 etc. For that very likely my theory of an Italian (or Alpine) refugium gained consideration as time passed. But many people (and researchers), above all who hate not only Iberians but above all Romans (thus Italians), and linked with this leftist/Jewish/gay mafia of the Harvard and Stanford etc. universities, thought that, demonstrated false the Iberian refugium, they could support the levantinist and kurganist theories, but my theory about R-V88 and R-L389 is going to be demonstrated right, thus these said “scientists” (but they are more the followers of religious/magical mentality) tested hugely everywhere except not only the western France as Maju said yesterday in his blog, but above all Italy and the line Rhone/Rhine where I said that R1b migrated to central Europe where is found amongst the Bell Beakers. They gave also 2,5 million dollar for testing Anatolia more than they did, hoping to find R1b there.
I didn’t get one dollar from my activity, but having fucked the ass of all these people in these ten years has no price!

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:38 am
Gioiello
Almost everyone accepts the evidence that the Bell Beaker culture originated in Iberia and spread throughout Europe. L21 was found a long time before the SNP DF27 was found and the R1b in Iberia was given this status P312*. Some thought that this status meant that it was a basal branch of P312 and they were right. We know now that DF27 is the most common subhaplogroup in Iberia and it is a hard SNP to test for. That is worth exploring. There is a reason for it and because it is a specific SNP to Iberians. M222 is specific to Ireland and that is a known fact by the scientists.


We know also that some people in Ireland were given the P312**status . I have not seen any posts where testers of this status took the Big Y and made their results public. Do you know of any? Have any of the ancient samples tested been given this P312** status? This is important to history of P312 in western Europe.

U106 has not been found in any Bronze Age burials in Britain to date. The Wikipedia page on the Unetice states that there were links between the Unetice culture and the Wessex culture in Britain. Dr. McDonald reckons that some branches of U106 were linked to the Unetice culture and Tumulus cultures. That makes sense because U106 has been in western/central Europe for the past 5,000 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture

Posts: 2400
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:08 am
Of course we need much more data for saying the word "The end" about this question, but P312 is very old also in Western Italy, and anyway my zone has the oldest haplotypes of every subclade of R1b1 haplogroup. About the fact that each reagion of Western Europe has an own carachteristic haplogroup I think that it may have happened just for genetic drift (from a similar pool each region had a dominant one), and that will be clear when the dates are corrected as I (and many others now) am saying from so long, also this time against all.

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:27 pm
Gioiello wrote:Of course we need much more data for saying the word "The end" about this question, but P312 is very old also in Western Italy, and anyway my zone has the oldest haplotypes of every subclade of R1b1 haplogroup. About the fact that each reagion of Western Europe has an own carachteristic haplogroup I think that it may have happened just for genetic drift (from a similar pool each region had a dominant one), and that will be clear when the dates are corrected as I (and many others now) am saying from so long, also this time against all.



Even with the present TMRCA's for DF27,U152,L21,L48 and Z156 these groups were all formed by the onset of the Bronze Age. Not even one of these dna groups were found in any part of the Steppe in any ancient dna sample to date. So therefore there is no evidence of a massive invasion of R1b-L51 descendants from the Steppe in the BA. Checkmate.

And people should be aware that some academics think that Yfull's TMRCA are underestimated.

The Bell Beaker culture did not reach the Steppe and the eastern Beaker dates are younger than Iberian dates. Some dna testers have tried to twist the facts to fit with their own personal ancestral quests but I live in the real world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:26 pm
I think that this Ukrainian I5884 shows that Z2103 did not originate near the Sok River. If the P312 BBs originated in the Ukraine they should have the same autosomal results as 15884. And it is evidence also that the ancestors of the BB did not pass through the Ukraine.

From Eurogenes blog

[1] distance%=2.8944 / distance=0.028944

Ukraine_Eneolithic:I5884 (R1b-Z2103)
Ukraine_N 71.4
Trypillia 28.6
CHG 0
EHG 0
Yamnaya_Samara 0[/quote]

If L11 was born in the western Steppe (Ukraine) he and his descendants would have the same autosomal dna profile as I5884. That seals it. The Steppe dna in western/central Europeans came from females and L11 in my view was born, originated in western/central Europe where all his descendants were born.

Proto-Nagyrev R1b-L11, I7043, was L11 xP312,U106. This dna sample was an unresolved R1b and has no bearing on the origin of U106 or P312. Get with the program, U106 and P312 were not born in the Ukraine, Hungary, Poland nor the Baltics. P312 and U106 did not go north of the Carpathians nor south of the Carpathians. Both were born in western Europe just like the majority of their descendants. L11 was only one man. How long will it be before some posters waken up to reality?!! Autosomal dna has no bearing on the origin P312 and U106.


RISE563 is earliest BB (2,500 BC) and this U152 was found in Bavaria. Yfull's TMRCA for U152 is 4,500 ybp but U152 must have been formed earlier and P312 must be earlier still. U152 is only one of the many branches of P312. France is most likely place of origin of P312. How many times must one write it before it sinks in with the majority of posters?

Posts: 2223
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:14 am
U152 (4,500 ybp) Bell Beaker RISE563 at GEDmatch, Kit Num: T644357. The SNP count is low for RISE563 but here is a MDLP K11 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle result.
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 48.31
2 Neolithic 25.16
3 EHG 15.02
4 Iran-Mesolithic 10.58

Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Bockstein_Mesolithic + Kotias_CHG + Luxembourg_Mesolithic + Spain_EN @ 0.499392
2 BerryAuBac_Mesolithic + Iberia_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + LesCloseaux13_Mesolithic @ 0.803128
3 Bichon_Azillian + Iberia_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + LesCloseaux13_Mesolithic @ 0.803128
4 Continenza_Paleolithic + Iberia_Chalcolithic + Kotias_CHG + LesCloseaux13_Mesolithic @ 0.803128
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