Damnonii and M222

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:51 am
The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. All the other M222 haplotypes are derived from it. This haplotype, I believe, was born in the 35 SNP ,105-175 generation M222 bottleneck.

If one clicks on info they will see the ancestral YSTRs that Yfull have proposed for M222. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M222/
Last edited by dartraighe on Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:15 am
dartraighe wrote:The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. All the other M222 haplotypes are derived from it. This haplotype, I believe, was born in the 35 SNP ,105-175 generation M222 bottleneck.

If one clicks on info they will see the ancestral YSTRs that Yfull have proposed for M222.


In fact I think that the Italian/Ligurian haplotypes may be upstream M222 within the bottleneck from 4300 and 1850 years ago. Of course to test M222 is not enough, it would need an NGS, but, if he really resulted M222, we'd pay also for that, because it would be astonishing...

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:26 am
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. All the other M222 haplotypes are derived from it. This haplotype, I believe, was born in the 35 SNP ,105-175 generation M222 bottleneck.

If one clicks on info they will see the ancestral YSTRs that Yfull have proposed for M222.


In fact I think that the Italian/Ligurian haplotypes may be upstream M222 within the bottleneck from 4300 and 1850 years ago. Of course to test M222 is not enough, it would need an NGS, but, if he really resulted M222, we'd pay also for that, because it would be astonishing...



It can not be within the 4,300-1,850 bottleneck unless he branches of within the bottleneck with a new SNP that no one else has. Yfull has published the ancestral values, and he has not got them. No M222 sample has broken the 35 SNP block that I know of so far. Yfull does not show a break with all of their samples tested.

There are only four main branches under M222 at Yfull; M222*,S568, Y3454 and DF104.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:29 pm
dartraighe wrote:It can not be within the 4,300-1,850 bottleneck unless he branches of within the bottleneck with a new SNP that no one else has. Yfull has published the ancestral values, and he has not got them. No M222 sample has broken the 35 SNP block that I know of so far. Yfull does not show a break with all of their samples tested.

There are only four main branches under M222 at Yfull; M222*,S568, Y3454 and DF104.


To be upstream would mean to have some of those 35 SNPs but not all, for that I say that an NGS would need, and, if he really were M222, we'd pay for that. At this point that M222 passed 2500 years in the Isles without leaving any trace is very unlikely, thus that it came from somewhere is possible. The oldest subclades are in Portugal and may be also in Italy or elsewhere. You know that I Always arrive in the truth. It is also possible that Basso and these Other Ligurians are introgressed in Middle Ages from some migration, and we'll know also that.

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:42 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:It can not be within the 4,300-1,850 bottleneck unless he branches of within the bottleneck with a new SNP that no one else has. Yfull has published the ancestral values, and he has not got them. No M222 sample has broken the 35 SNP block that I know of so far. Yfull does not show a break with all of their samples tested.

There are only four main branches under M222 at Yfull; M222*,S568, Y3454 and DF104.


To be upstream would mean to have some of those 35 SNPs but not all, for that I say that an NGS would need, and, if he really were M222, we'd pay for that. At this point that M222 passed 2500 years in the Isles without leaving any trace is very unlikely, thus that it came from somewhere is possible. The oldest subclades are in Portugal and may be also in Italy or elsewhere. You know that I Always arrive in the truth. It is also possible that Basso and these Other Ligurians are introgressed in Middle Ages from some migration, and we'll know also that.



Gioiello
Any or all M222 found outside of the Isles belongs to the Diaspora. The father of M222 should be the target for researchers.

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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:47 am
Gioiello
Z2961 is the paternal ancestor of M222 and the ancestral haplotype that Yfull gives for it is the WAMH. You have done great work with haplotypes in the past and you have taught me and others the importance of them in finding branches. If only you could get some YSTR values for Villabruna you would be able to tell us which group he belonged.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:34 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
Z2961 is the paternal ancestor of M222 and the ancestral haplotype that Yfull gives for it is the WAMH. You have done great work with haplotypes in the past and you have taught me and others the importance of them in finding branches. If only you could get some YSTR values for Villabruna you would be able to tell us which group he belonged.


These are some posts about this argument:
1
There are in Sardinia (Francalacci 2013/2015) 3 R-L21 who belong to the DF1/L513 subclade, but DYS392 is modal at 13, very few are 14, and most of them seems just M222. As usual FTDNA and its administrators haven't the purpose to spare SNPs and tests. Thus that the Ligurian samples are DF1 is very unlikely.
2
Su L21 hai fatto bene a controllare, cosa che io non ho fatto, facendo male. Anche sugli aplotipi stetti alle tue parole, ma se avessi visto che Basso mecciava in tutto eccetto che in DYS439, avrei senz'altro propeso anch'io per L21. Non se hai letto il mio post in cui sembra che i Liguri siano diversi dai Sardi che sono DF1... quindi un pack è l'unica cosa da fare. Ho fatto una figuretta su M222 perché non ho rispettato la mia usuale prudenza di verificare tutto. Male. Ma è una cosa che faccio semel in anno sed non semel in vita....
3
Marco, but M222 is only one of the 35 SNPs of the bottleneck, thus that Boattini has tested the samples for L21(xM222) doesn't mean that these Ligurians may not be upstream, within the bottleneck, because it isn't said that M222 is the oldest SNP.
Thus, after the Yseq pack, if a certain subclade after L21 won't come out, we'll decide what to do.
4
About this last question of yours I have to say that Villabruna is very low tested, perhaps 1.250.000 SNPs of the whole genome, thus I think that no YSTRs may be catched, but very likely it would be useless, because the haplotypes change and by chance. Very likely some values could be rotated around a modal value lasting also to-day, but other may have gone for the tangent or through multistep mutations as it is in my four golden principles, and it isn't said that Villabruna is our direct ancestor, I rather think to a person of our clan who could be also very different in his STRs from the R-P297* who survived and is our ancestor.

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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:58 pm
You may see that after a bottleneck of 2500 years , that that was the WAMH
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29
was this new modal
13 25 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29
Three mutations in Y12 aren't a few, and the R-L21-M222 are easily recognizable already with only 12 markers, because within 1850 years some markers are largely unchanged, as DYS392=14 from 13.
If the survivor is an outlier, we may have hg. I1 with DYS455=8 from 11, or R-L51-PF7589 with DYS426=13 from 12 or R-M269* with DYS426=11 from 12 ...

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:02 pm
The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. The three markers in bold are the defining markers for M222 not just DYS392=14. Some testers who are U106 are also 14 at this marker. If M222 is found in Italy it is intrusive. M222 nor his father were born in Italy. Do you understand?!!!!!!


Furthermore, I had a dispute with another poster who said that it was not possible that the R1b M269 haplotype survived from the birth of M269 for 14,000 years, but I was right. Anyone can go to Yfull and look at the ancestral haplotype for M269. The large M269 bottleneck is the reason.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:31 pm
dartraighe wrote:The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. The three markers in bold are the defining markers for M222 not just DYS392=14. Some testers who are U106 are also 14 at this marker. If M222 is found in Italy it is intrusive. M222 nor his father were born in Italy. Do you understand?!!!!!!

Furthermore, I had a dispute with another poster who said that it was not possible that the R1b M269 haplotype survived from the birth of M269 for 14,000 years, but I was right. Anyone can go to Yfull and look at the ancestral haplotype for M269. The large M269 bottleneck is the reason.


Of course I din't say that M222 was born in Italy. No one would think to it now, and it would be much surprising. Only that I wanted to look deeperly at these samples from Liguria, which are already tested for M222 from Boattini and are negative, but negative for M222 doesn't mean to be negative for all the 35 SNPs of the bottleneck.
About the mutations you speak about, of course they didn't happen simultaneously: firstly one, which could be DYS392 from 13 to 14, after the other two. Thus it is hypothesizable an intermediate phase of the bottleneck where an DYS392=14 had some of those 35 SNPs, and after some other had the others. Of course all that may be demonstrated only from an NGS.
Of course this process may have happened in the Isles, but also elsewhere, and the oldest sample upstream M222 is in Portugal, demonstrating that R-L21 very likely came from Iberia or Southern France with Bell Beakers. For demonstrating that R-L21 was born in the Isles we have to find its ancestors in the Isles in the aDNA and that didn't happen so far, but the aDNA will resolve also this question.

It is the same process which brought me to my hypothesis of an "Italian Refugium" of R1b1 and the unique to announce Villabruna all over the world: Italy hasn't only the R1b1 which brings to L389+ with the highest variance, but also R-V88, R-M18, R-V35, R-M335 etc. I didn't interest myself to R-L21 as for other subclades, but, if I'll study that, I'll be able to say where R-L21 was born and also R-M222...
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