Damnonii and M222

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:54 pm
The samples of DF1 which are in Sardinia
R-S5668 FGC9776/Y12649 * S5668 * BY15/FGC13493/A2 formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp info
R-S5668*
id:ERS257018ITA [IT-CA]new
and
R-FGC13499 A7/FGC13499 * Y23047 formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp info
R-FGC13499*
id:ERS257017 ITA [IT-CA]new
are 4000 years old as the oldest in the Isles
R-DF1 S5191 * CTS5396/S5196 * Z249/S279+4 SNPsformed 4300 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp info
thus DF1 may be born in the Isles as in Sardinia and very likely the samples in Sardinia didn't come from the Isles.
For that I wanted to test my father-in-low family from Sicily who are R-L21. They very likely are of Norman origin, but they could have come from Iberia with Bell Beakers 4000 years ago or more.
We don't know without certain tests.

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:43 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:The ancestral haplotype for all M222 is 13,25,14,11,11,13,12,12,12,13,14,29. The three markers in bold are the defining markers for M222 not just DYS392=14. Some testers who are U106 are also 14 at this marker. If M222 is found in Italy it is intrusive. M222 nor his father were born in Italy. Do you understand?!!!!!!

Furthermore, I had a dispute with another poster who said that it was not possible that the R1b M269 haplotype survived from the birth of M269 for 14,000 years, but I was right. Anyone can go to Yfull and look at the ancestral haplotype for M269. The large M269 bottleneck is the reason.


Of course I din't say that M222 was born in Italy. No one would think to it now, and it would be much surprising. Only that I wanted to look deeperly at these samples from Liguria, which are already tested for M222 from Boattini and are negative, but negative for M222 doesn't mean to be negative for all the 35 SNPs of the bottleneck.
About the mutations you speak about, of course they didn't happen simultaneously: firstly one, which could be DYS392 from 13 to 14, after the other two. Thus it is hypothesizable an intermediate phase of the bottleneck where an DYS392=14 had some of those 35 SNPs, and after some other had the others. Of course all that may be demonstrated only from an NGS.
Of course this process may have happened in the Isles, but also elsewhere, and the oldest sample upstream M222 is in Portugal, demonstrating that R-L21 very likely came from Iberia or Southern France with Bell Beakers. For demonstrating that R-L21 was born in the Isles we have to find its ancestors in the Isles in the aDNA and that didn't happen so far, but the aDNA will resolve also this question.

It is the same process which brought me to my hypothesis of an "Italian Refugium" of R1b1 and the unique to announce Villabruna all over the world: Italy hasn't only the R1b1 which brings to L389+ with the highest variance, but also R-V88, R-M18, R-V35, R-M335 etc. I didn't interest myself to R-L21 as for other subclades, but, if I'll study that, I'll be able to say where R-L21 was born and also R-M222...



France might be the origin place of p312 and L21. L11 was born in western Europe, I think, and the WAMH is the proof.

You can see the ancestral branches of M222 in this site.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:47 pm
dartraighe wrote:You can see the ancestral branches of M222 in this site.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49


126265 Graham Jesse Graham, b 1781 NC - d 1860 AL Unknown Origin R-M222
12 24 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 17 16 18 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 24 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
In fact Ligurians could be the ancestors of this haplotype. Very likely DYS393=12 from 13 is a back mutation.

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:55 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:You can see the ancestral branches of M222 in this site.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF49


126265 Graham Jesse Graham, b 1781 NC - d 1860 AL Unknown Origin R-M222
12 24 14 11 11-13 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 12 19-23 17 16 18 16 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 24 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
In fact Ligurians could be the ancestors of this haplotype. Very likely DYS393=12 from 13 is a back mutation.



Gioiello
I think that names are meaningless beyond 600 years. Is it possible to determine the origin of a subclade by SNP+ location of ancestor +TMRCA+cluster analysis? I don't think that autosomal dna is of any benefit because most Europeans have similar autosomal haplotypes.

S658 is the largest branch of m222. Here is a link with a cluster map of M222.
http://ringofgullion.com/dna_testing.php

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:16 pm
Some people look at YDNA groups today and infer that they were at the same frequencies in the same regions 2000 and 4000 ybp. That is certainly not the case with M222 because for 2000 years M222 were a very small group. The same can be said for M269 in western Europe. We know now that M269 went through a huge bottleneck wherever they lived and were probably a small family group of around 50-60 people. How would the scientists be able to find evidence of these people? That is probably one of the reasons. The haplogroup I2b must have been more numerous in the past in western Europe. Haplogroup C that was found in La Brana is also a rare haplogroup today in western Europe. They are taking their time publishing the results of the 67 Bell Beakers that were promised. Have they discovered something that does not fit with the current thinking?

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:09 pm
dartraighe wrote:Some people look at YDNA groups today and infer that they were at the same frequencies in the same regions 2000 and 4000 ybp. That is certainly not the case with M222 because for 2000 years M222 were a very small group. The same can be said for M269 in western Europe. We know now that M269 went through a huge bottleneck wherever they lived and were probably a small family group of around 50-60 people. How would the scientists be able to find evidence of these people? That is probably one of the reasons. The haplogroup I2b must have been more numerous in the past in western Europe. Haplogroup C that was found in La Brana is also a rare haplogroup today in western Europe. They are taking their time publishing the results of the 67 Bell Beakers that were promised. Have they discovered something that does not fit with the current thinking?



L226 is another Irish L21 group that expanded within the last 2000 years and I am sure there are others so the L21 frequency that we see today is not it what was in the past.The L226 bottleneck was 17 SNPs according to Yfull and possibly lasted from 51-85 generations.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L226/

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:05 pm
Gioiello
When I began dna testing ten years ago M222 was the most popular SNP test at that time. The 67 marker YSTR signature of the M222 group was easy to recognize and some experts thought at that time that M222 was a very young subgroup due to the small number of YSTR mutations that were showing among the M222 group. We now have a better understanding of this group through NGS testing. We know that the M222 mutation happened around 4,300 ybp and the most recent common ancestor for the group was born around 2000 ybp. We know that the M222 family went through a huge bottleneck and so some people think that may have produced a unique signature and the reason for so few mutations. So we can learn from studying the group about our own subgroups.
Last edited by dartraighe on Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:10 pm
Of course.

Posts: 2229
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:44 pm
Z255 was bottle necked for 14 YSNPs. Yfull says formed 4,300 and TMRCA of all Z255 men is 1,600. Yfull 's years per SNP =144.41+60 and 14x 144=2016 so where are the other 600 plus years ? So we have another Irish L21 single line of descent group until 1,600 ybp when the group expanded.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z255/

Posts: 2406
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:29 pm
dartraighe wrote:Z255 was bottle necked for 14 YSNPs. Yfull says formed 4,300 and TMRCA of all Z255 men is 1,600. Yfull 's years per SNP =144.41+60 and 14x 144=2016 so where are the other 600 plus years ? So we have another Irish L21 single line of descent group until 1,600 ybp when the group expanded.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z255/


Not all the SNPs are counted from YFull, but only those which are in some regions.
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