Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:21 am
dartraighe wrote:To learn about R1b we should look in Italy where the oldest R1b was found to date. There are 15 million R1b in Italy and only 2 million R1b in Ireland. Italy has the most R1b diversity. Italy is not one of the Celtic nations.



But not only about hg. R1b, but also about many mt-s, as H. See my last posts on another thread:

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:53 pm
I thank Ian Logan for having put away the double sample I spoke above.

My friend Marco Grassi got the FMS of a friend of his:

182T 263G 315.1C 750G 1438G 1719A 2851G 4769G 4793G 8860G 15326G 16519C

An H7a, but how is it possible that the mutation A2851G is found pretty always in hg H (36 samples out of 42: H1 1, H1c 2, H1h 2, H3 23, H5a 7, H11a 1, and only 6 samples all the other hgs: HV1a 1, J1c 2, G2a 1, M49e 2)? And now this H7a. We have to think that the mutation was in heteroplasmy in H* and passed and fixed only on some hgs. Of course I should do an analysis, but, seen also this sample from Fraumene et al. 2006,
11. DQ523661(Sardinia) Fraumene H3 03-OCT-2006
A263G A750G A1313G A1438G A2851G A4769G T6776C A8860G A11200G A15326G T16519C
and this
34. KM252736(Italy) Bodner H3 21-OCT-2014
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2851G A4769G T6776C A8860G A11200G T15115G A15326G T16519C
I have the suspect that that H* was in Italy/Sardinia, where Hg H (and many others) may have had their origin.

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:08 pm
This would disprove what Olivieri et al said, that the migration to Sardinia happened from Western Mediterranean source rather that the continental Italy: “As shown in figure 2, the ages of H1 and H3 leave open the possibility that both were also present in Sardinia prior to the Neolithic. Notably, the frequency of H3 in Sardinia (18.4%) is the highest reported till now, and haplogroup H3 harbors a very peculiar geographical distribution. The highest frequencies are in western Mediterranean (Sardinians, Basques and other Iberians), with a sharp decrease towards Central and Eastern Europe and only very few occurrences in the Near East (fig. 4; supplementary table S9, Supplementary Material online), which founder analyses explain as recent incursions. Given that the population size trends for the Sardinian H3 mtDNAs indicate an expansion beginning between 9.0 and 10.5 Kya (fig. 4), it is tempting to link such an expansion to a pre-Neolithic arrival and diffusion of H3 on the island, most likely from a Western Mediterranean source, as previously suggested (Achilli et al. 2004; Torroni et al. 2006; Soares et al. 2010), possibly the same ancestral source of the ancestors of U5b1i1 and Y-chromosome haplogroup I2a1a1-M26 (Francalacci et al. 2015)”.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:04 pm
Gioiello
there were a lot of Kurgans found in eastern Hungary but not in western Hungary. There is no evidence of a steppe migration from Hungary to Italy. The mountains of northern Italy would be a barrier to people travelling with horses and wagons. Those people who are obsessed with an R1b link to the steppe people should explain to us the origin of the R1b population in Italy. The steppe people would have to travel through the north European plain into Germany and if they were R1b derived then they should all be P312 in the CWC not R1a. And the reason that P312 should be found in the CWC is that they were a larger population group than U106 and P312 was already born at the time of the BA migration. The fact that no P312 were found in the CWC even though the CWC were said to be 75% steppe derived people should be a wake up call for the "dreamers". And not one Z2103 was found in the German CWC and we were told that the Yamnaya were saturated with Z2103.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:01 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
there were a lot of Kurgans found in eastern Hungary but not in western Hungary. There is no evidence of a steppe migration from Hungary to Italy. The mountains of northern Italy would be a barrier to people travelling with horses and wagons. Those people who are obsessed with an R1b link to the steppe people should explain to us the origin of the R1b population in Italy. The steppe people would have to travel through the north European plain into Germany and if they were R1b derived then they should all be P312 in the CWC not R1a. And the reason that P312 should be found in the CWC is that they were a larger population group than U106 and P312 was already born at the time of the BA migration. The fact that no P312 were found in the CWC even though the CWC were said to be 75% steppe derived people should be a wake up call for the "dreamers". And not one Z2103 was found in the German CWC and we were told that the Yamnaya were saturated with Z2103.


Also about Z2103/Z2105 I have written a lot. Not all the subclades came from Eastern Europe: not my Z2110 (overwhelmingly in Italy), neither the subclades which expanded from the Isles and anyway Western Europe. And also the subclades expanded from East have some subclades overwhelmingly Western, not counting R-M73 (only in Western Europe, and in Eastern European only the subclade M478). All these people don't understand anything about this matter and follow the people who own labs, funds, papers and don't know that they have an agenda, very strong because beyond that there is a state, a religion, two WW and the third in due course...

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:20 pm
S12460 * Z2110/CTS7822 * S17864 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
• id:ERS256997ITA [IT-CA]
• R-Z2110*
o id:YF01886BGR [BG-23]
• R-CTS699CTS699 * Y36455 * S11762
o id:ERS256996ITA [IT-CA]new
o id:YF10633ITA [IT-BA]
o id:HG01277COL
• R-FGC24408FGC24408 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
o id:YF02873ITA [IT-FI] [Gioiello Tognoni]


R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
id:ERS257000ITA [IT-CA]
R-L51*
R-Z2118 Z2118/PF7589 * Z2113 * Z2112+5 SNPs formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp
id:YF03838TUR [TR-34]
R-Z2118*
id:YF06757
id:ERS256999ITA [IT-CA]
id:YF01968
R-Z4416 Y37628 * FGC38687 * Y37612+36 SNPs formed 5200 ybp, TMRCA 225 ybp
id:YF11089BRA [BR-MG] but from Italy, Lucca, Tuscany
id:YF10304BRA [BR-MG] but from Italy, Lucca, Tuscany
R-Z2116 Z2116/CTS10379 * Y37356 formed 5200 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp
R-Z2116*
R-Y5141 Y5141/V2387 * Y5143 * CTS3027+14 SNPs formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp
R-Y5141*
id:NA20785ITA
R-Y37283Y37283 * Y37351 * Y37352+4 SNPs formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp
id:YF10878GBR
id:YF01827ENG

Amerighi from Siena, Tuscany, Italy, even though of possible German origin, is waiting for his Big Y and is the first R-P310+, P311+ but L151- found so far all over the world.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:59 pm
Gioiello wrote:S12460 * Z2110/CTS7822 * S17864 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
• id:ERS256997ITA [IT-CA]
• R-Z2110*
o id:YF01886BGR [BG-23]
• R-CTS699CTS699 * Y36455 * S11762
o id:ERS256996ITA [IT-CA]new
o id:YF10633ITA [IT-BA]
o id:HG01277COL
• R-FGC24408FGC24408 formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
o id:YF02873ITA [IT-FI] [Gioiello Tognoni]


R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp
id:ERS257000ITA [IT-CA]
R-L51*
R-Z2118 Z2118/PF7589 * Z2113 * Z2112+5 SNPs formed 5700 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp
id:YF03838TUR [TR-34]
R-Z2118*
id:YF06757
id:ERS256999ITA [IT-CA]
id:YF01968
R-Z4416 Y37628 * FGC38687 * Y37612+36 SNPs formed 5200 ybp, TMRCA 225 ybp
id:YF11089BRA [BR-MG] but from Italy, Lucca, Tuscany
id:YF10304BRA [BR-MG] but from Italy, Lucca, Tuscany
R-Z2116 Z2116/CTS10379 * Y37356 formed 5200 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp
R-Z2116*
R-Y5141 Y5141/V2387 * Y5143 * CTS3027+14 SNPs formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 2300 ybp
R-Y5141*
id:NA20785ITA
R-Y37283Y37283 * Y37351 * Y37352+4 SNPs formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp
id:YF10878GBR
id:YF01827ENG

Amerighi from Siena, Tuscany, Italy, even though of possible German origin, is waiting for his Big Y and is the first R-P310+, P311+ but L151- found so far all over the world.



The Yfull tree shows a lot of Italian R1b basal branches which some people are not able to comprehend.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see."

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:01 pm
GEDmatch has a predict eye colour feature. I would like to see the owner of GEDmatch add a "predict skin colour" feature so that we can check out the skin colour of the ancients.

The scientists have forgotten that the Swedish Mesolithic people had light skin, Motala 12 etc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/worl ... -skin.html
"Scientists have now reconstructed his features, demonstrating that he was part of a population of ancient Western Europeans that, scientists have shown in recent years, had dark skin. Research has shown that fair skin pigmentation — long considered a defining feature of Europe — only goes back less than 6,000 years."


Blue eye color is associated with the rs12913832(G;G) genotype.

[PMID 17182896] estimates that the rs1426654(A) allele (light skin pigmentation) spread through the European population around 6,000 - 12,000 years ago. Prior to that, "European ancestors" were most likely relatively brown-skinned!!!!!!

The German LBK woman 7,500 ybp had rs1426654 AA.

The evidence shows that some Ancient Europeans had light skin and some had dark skin just like modern Europeans today.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:41 pm
Did Cheddar man belong to haplogroup C? This man was along way from his place of origin, India!!!! La Brana was C also.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130
Origins
"Estimated migration root of haplogroup C[2]
Haplogroup C-M130 seems to have come into existence shortly after SNP mutation M168 occurred for the first time, bringing the modern Haplogroup CT into existence, from which Haplogroup CF, and in turn Haplogroup C, derived. This was probably at least 60,000 years before present.

Although Haplogroup C-M130 attains its highest frequencies among the indigenous populations of Mongolia, the Russian Far East, Polynesia, Australia, and at moderate frequency in Korea and Manchu people, it displays its highest diversity among modern populations of India. It is therefore hypothesized that Haplogroup C-M130 either originated or underwent its longest period of evolution within India or the greater South Asian coastal region. The highest diversity is observed in Southeast Asia, and its northward expansion in East Asia started approximately 40,000 years ago"

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:01 am
There must have been another population in Britain at the time of Cheddar man. Blue eyes and dark skin is a contradiction in genetic terms. I think that Villabruna had light eyes and light skin
and he was 100% WHG. If Cheddar man is U5 then we will know that he some of his ancestors were native to western Europe. And it is possible that some of his ancestors arrived from the Indian continent. One thing for certain is that he came from an Ice Age refuge.

People of European descent show the greatest variety in eye color of any population worldwide.

https://www.aclens.com/Content/Display/323

Blue Eyes
"Blue eyes are genetically recessive, and therefore much less common worldwide. Blue eyes are formed by the absence of pigments in the eye, where the blue color is formed by the scattering of light as it's reflected off the iris. While blue eyes are less common than brown eyes, they are frequently found from nationalities located near the Baltic sea in northern Europe. It's estimated that approximately 8% of the world's population has blue eyes"

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:38 pm
Green Eyes
"Green eye color is often confused with hazel eye color, yet is entirely separate and distinct. Green eye color is the rarest color found around the world, and it is estimated that only around 2% of the world's population has green colored eyes. Green eye color is a result of a mild amount of pigmentation in the eye with a golden tint. When combined with the natural blue scattering of the eye, the colors mix to give a green appearance. Green eye color is most common in northern and central Europe, but can also be found in western Asian cultures on rare occasion."

I checked out the eye colour of some of the ancients at GEDmatch. Gravetian Italy, (ca 27 ka), ID T947885, looks like she had green eyes. Villabruna, 13,000 ybp ID M236020, looks like he had grey colour eyes and Loschbour, 8,000 ybp ID F999918, had grey eyes.

The Neolithic Irish woman and Rathlin1 had brown eyes. The eye colour predictor at GEDmatch is quite accurate for my relatives.

Most red hair people in Ireland have blue eyes and lighter skin than normal. The red hair gene is older than 10,000 years and is specific to north western Europe so not all Mesolithic Europeans were dark skinned.
Last edited by dartraighe on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Posts: 2280
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:54 pm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694299/

"Analysis of an eighth single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP), rs12896399 (SLC24A4), showed a statistically significant association with human eye color (P = 0.007) but a rather poor strength of agreement (κ = 0.063). This SNP was added to the 7-plex system (rs12913832 at HERC2, rs1545397 at OCA2, rs16891982 at SLC45A2, rs1426654 at SLC24A5, rs885479 at MC1R, rs6119471 at ASIP, and rs12203592 at IRF4). Further, the instruction guidelines on the interpretation of genotypes were changed to create a new 8-plex system. This was based on the analysis of an 803-sample training set of various populations. The newly developed 8-plex system can predict the eye colors brown, green, and blue, and skin colors light, not dark, and not light. It is superior to the 7-plex system with its additional ability to predict blue eye and light skin color."
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