Who's your (proto) daddy Western Europeans?

General discussions regarding DNA and its uses in genealogy research

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:49 am
Yfull says P312 formed 4,800 ybp. The ancestral Y line that give birth to P312 is L23>P312 with 20 YSNPs in total was bottlenecked and was single Y-line of descent and with 2,000 years added to the formed date for the 20 YSNPs L23 would be formed around 6,800 ybp. This small R1b line could have survived somewhere in central Europe and expanded in the late Neolithic with the origin of the Iberian BB.

The Baltic BB cannot be older than the German BB so P312 when found in the Baltic BB should show later radio carbon dates than the German BB samples. The BB idea was born in Iberia in the late Neolithic around 5,000 ybp and spread north and east as far as the Baltics. If P312 and U106 are found in Neolithic sites in the Baltics that should be proof of the origin.

If the L23>P312 bottleneck occured in the Ukraine we do not see any evidence of an expansion of P312 from the Ukraine, north through Poland nor south through Hungary. If P312 arrived as one small R1b family from the Ukraine and expanded from Germany it had to be in the Neolithic, not in the BA. And one small family could not change the autosomal dna of western Europeans by 15-30%, nor the language either.

L23>P312 could not have originated in the Caucasus due to the fact that there is no YSNP trail from the Caucasus to western Europe.

The Samara HG was L23* and no relation of western Europeans. The rest of the east European ancient dna samples were an odd branch of Z2103 which is not proof of Z2103 origin.

Mal’ta boy did not belong to R1b. He belonged to R* and there was no R or R1b in Siberia 13,000 ybp because we know that no R nor R1b crossed the Bering Strait.

And there wasn't just one migrant wave that crossed the Bering Strait who were the ancestors of the NA. There were several waves according to the scientists but none were R1b.

And that shows also that the L23* found in Samara was a recent event and R1b did not originate there. Villabruna is the proof.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:45 am
Around 12 years ago a ydna researcher created the WAMH from a number of dna samples at ysearch. He suggested then that R1b haplotype modal was a western European haplogroup and that still stands today. He did not need ancient dna results to show him the facts. P312 and U106 are the bearers of this WAMH haplotype badge and they are definitely western European subhaplogroups. A small diehard number of ydna testers do not seem to be able to accept this fact. The overwhelming evidence is there for everyone to see and yet a few still persist with their outdated ideas. The birth and expansion of P312 in western Europe and even into central Europe during the early BA is phenomenal and is evidently linked to the birth of the Iberian Bell Beaker Culture.

The autosomal dna that some scientists say that has not been seen in western Europe until the BA was Causasus Hunter Gatherer autosomal dna. No Bell Beakers have been found in the Caucasus.

It is hard also to understand how haplogroup G was found in western/central European Neolithic sites with no CHG owing to fact that haplogroup G originated in the Caucasus.

Haplogroup G should be found in Yamnaya with Yamnaya 40% CHG. Some Z2103 may have arrived in the Yamnaya from Iran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201
"At the level of national populations, G-M201 is most commonly found in Georgia; it is found at even higher levels among many other regional and minority populations in the Caucasus. G-M201 is also widely distributed at low frequencies, among ethnic groups of Europe, South Asia, Central Asia, and North Africa."

Origins
"Various estimated dates and locations have been proposed for the origin of G-M201, most of them in Western Asia[1]

In 2012, a paper by Siiri Rootsi et al. suggested that: "We estimate that the geographic origin of haplogroup G plausibly locates somewhere nearby eastern Anatolia, Armenia or western Iran."[4]

Previously the National Geographic Society placed its origins in the Middle East 30,000 years ago and presumes that people carrying the haplogroup took part in the spread of the Neolithic.[5]

Two scholarly papers have also suggested an origin in the Middle East, while differing on the date. Semino et al. (2000) suggested 17,000 years ago.[6] Cinnioglu et al. (2004) suggested the mutation took place only 9,500 years ago."

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:29 am
In David Reich's new book, he states the following:

"This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along the with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe."



The unpublished ancient dna samples from the massive R1b P312 and R1b U106 population source in the Steppe before the "massive R1b invasion" that people want to see and not the unpublished ancient dna samples from Iberia.

Makes you wonder why David Reich has not published any ancient P312 and U106 Steppe dna results from north of the Black Sea. The only reason that I can think of is that he has not got any.

It's possible that a small pocket of R1b M269>L11>P312and U106 held out in isolation somewhere for thousands of years in central Europe until the Bronze Age and then expanded and flourished. That is what the evidence is pointing to.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:52 pm
If Rathlin 1 came directly from the Steppe why has he got only 25.37% Steppe dna?! Rathlin has more Caucasian dna than the Yamnaya.

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NorthEastEuropean 27.84
2 Steppe 25.37
3 Neolithic 24.07
4 Caucasian 13.79
5 Indian 4.38
6 Subsaharian 2.74
7 Amerindian 1.43

Yamnaya M686446
MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Steppe 76.29
2 NorthEastEuropean 10.39
3 Indian 8.03
4 Caucasian 3.73
5 NearEast 1.18

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:17 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/201 ... y-britain/


"At that time most Britons were descended from The Beaker People, a group of farmers who migrated from the central Europe around 2750BC, and who replaced 90 per cent of Britain’s gene pool within just a few hundred years."

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:52 am
Gioiello
The Steppe fanboys are not happy with the Z2103 ancient sample from Iran. They fail to understand that no P312 has been found in the Steppe yet and that should be more important to them. It does not matter if all western Iberian type Bell Beaker people had 90% Steppe dna it is not proof that P312 was born/originated in the Steppe. They need to follow the Y-line and not the autosomal dna.

Prof. Reich has 1000's of ancient dna samples tested and yet he did not produce one P312 sample from the Steppe because he did not find one. That is why he shocked all the Steppe fanboys by stating that PIE originated in the south Caucasus. He did not make it up. He has the proof.

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:34 am
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
The Steppe fanboys are not happy with the Z2103 ancient sample from Iran. They fail to understand that no P312 has been found in the Steppe yet and that should be more important to them. It does not matter if all western Iberian type Bell Beaker people had 90% Steppe dna it is not proof that P312 was born/originated in the Steppe. They need to follow the Y-line and not the autosomal dna.

Prof. Reich has 1000's of ancient dna samples tested and yet he did not produce one P312 sample from the Steppe because he did not find one. That is why he shocked all the Steppe fanboys by stating that PIE originated in the south Caucasus. He did not make it up. He has the proof.


Who you name "fanboys" I'd name "fantoys". When Richard Rocca wrote on "Eurogenes blog" that Maju and me were discarded toys because we wrote again in Maju's blog after more than one year, I asked him if the measure of my "toy" (19 cm) were enough for his ass. He posted many samples from aDNA from central Europe above all R-U152-L2, no one of them was older than 4500 years, very likely much less, but no one tested Italy beyond Villabruna and now Les Iboussiéres linked to Liguria (Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide) till the Bell Beaker from Parma (about 4200 years ago).
You know that I spoke of this mafia of fake genetics composed above all of leftists, Jews and gays. It seems to me that Richard Riocca isn't a leftist neither a Jew...

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:44 pm
I don't think that the ancestor L11 or the earliest P312 and U106 will be found in Italy and it doesn't matter how many ancient samples they test. France and Germany for P312 and perhaps Austria for U106. My earlier post was about the absence of P312 and U106 in the Steppe.

I don't know why it is so important for a few testers that the PIE originated in the Steppe. The scientists state that there was a population explosion in the Neolithic and farming arrived with the farmers. If the farmers did not speak PIE, what language did they speak and was the language of the farmers wiped out by a lesser migration in the BA? The first farmers were on the move for 5,500 years before the BA. And what about the Basque langauge?

Posts: 2410
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:34 pm
dartraighe wrote:I don't think that the ancestor L11 or the earliest P312 and U106 will be found in Italy and it doesn't matter how many ancient samples they test. France and Germany for P312 and perhaps Austria for U106.


I quoted these words of yours, because I'll print them for the future. Of course France, Southern Germany and Austria are all around Italy and may be that some haplogroup started from there, but you should ask yourself why Villabruna (14000 ya) and Les Iboussiéres (12000 ya), linked to Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide, have been found in Italy and not elsewhere. Unfortunately you belong to the same Islands of the Virgin May and you won't be in any different from all the others Albionics.
So far the first R-L11 who breaks the series of 12 SNPs of that level (4 positive, 3 negative and 5 no calls) is a Tuscan and, even though a German origin ìs possible from medieval times, that should be demonstrated...and I am waiting that samples between Villabruna 14000 ya and the 4200 ya Bell Beakers from Parma are tested.

Posts: 2233
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I don't think that the ancestor L11 or the earliest P312 and U106 will be found in Italy and it doesn't matter how many ancient samples they test. France and Germany for P312 and perhaps Austria for U106.


I quoted these words of yours, because I'll print them for the future. Of course France, Southern Germany and Austria are all around Italy and may be that some haplogroup started from there, but you should ask yourself why Villabruna (14000 ya) and Les Iboussiéres (12000 ya), linked to Balzi Rossi and Arene Candide, have been found in Italy and not elsewhere. Unfortunately you belong to the same Islands of the Virgin May and you won't be in any different from all the others Albionics.
So far the first R-L11 who breaks the series of 12 SNPs of that level (4 positive, 3 negative and 5 no calls) is a Tuscan and, even though a German origin ìs possible from medieval times, that should be demonstrated...and I am waiting that samples between Villabruna 14000 ya and the 4200 ya Bell Beakers from Parma are tested.



Gioiello,
What has that statement got to do with the origin of L11>P312 and L11>U106?

I am pleased that you are printing my posts. I don't need to print anything. It is all stored in my brain.

I am sure that you are a very objective person who is really interested in science and it is not just the fact that you come from Italy and that you are R1b, that R1b has to originate in Italy and no other region.

The Z2103 in Iran is very interesting because we never expected an Iranian origin for Z2103, so I am sure that there are a lot more surprises in store for all of us dna junkies.


It is hard to ignore the fact that no R1b was found in the Remedello culture ancient dna samples yet!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedello_culture
"The Remedello culture has been recently periodized by scholars into two distinct historical periods both dating back to the Copper Age.[2]

Remedello I : 3400 [3] / 3200 BC - 2800 BC, or ancient Copper Age stage;

Remedello II: 2900 [3] / 2800 BC - 2400 BC, or full Copper Age stage."
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