Haplogroup H23


Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:32 pm

YDNA:
N-5003
MtDNA:
H23
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:44 pm
I recently was tested as belonging to haplogroup H23 by FTDNA. The furthest back I can go on my maternal line is 1701 (Barbara Stroehle, born Schopfloch, Wuerttemberg, Germany).

I take it that, because haplogroup H23 and haplogroup H* vary only in respect of one marker, the 10211T marker, haplogroup H23 must be relatively old. A recent publication (Brotherton, 2013) indicates that the marker has been found in a prehistoric individual (“HAL36”) inhumed in Halberstadt, Germany, who is thought to belong to the Neolithic Period Linearbandkeramick (LBK) Culture (~5000 B.C.). Is there any age estimate for H23?

The Phylotree Website did not list either the 10211T marker or Haplogroup H23 until its “Build 3” (1 March 2009). There the marker is associated with haplogroup H33—however, beginning with “Build 4” (10 May 2009), it has always been associated with haplogroup H23. Was it not listed because it is so rare today? Or because of testing limitations?

I have three extra markers: 315.1C; 16189C; and 16519C. I understand that the 16189C marker would probably be found in every person who belongs to haplogroup H23. What about the other two markers?

Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:41 am

MtDNA:
H13a1c
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:07 pm
Join the FTDNA Projects
The Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) Haplogroup H & HV Project- Background - http://www.familytreedna.com/public/H%20mtDNA%20Haplogroup/default.aspx

you can check that 315.1C is in 4769 kits in the project - it is not even counted as difference count
16189C! is also common
16519C is not


Also check the FAQ at FTDNA http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=49 - question 10
mutations at 309 and at 315 are completely excluded from difference counts

Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:32 pm

YDNA:
N-5003
MtDNA:
H23
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:09 am
Thanks for the quick response and pointing me to the Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) Haplogroup H & HV Project.

It appears that marker 16519C is uncommon. Only one member of the project has that mutation listed.

I also noticed that all of the H23 people listed in the H & HV project have the 16189T mutation rather than my 16189C mutation.

Do I belong to a different subclade of Haplogroup H23 than them?

Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:41 am

MtDNA:
H13a1c
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:22 am
jbruce wrote:Do I belong to a different subclade of Haplogroup H23 than them?


Not yet....

Not exactly - it could be private mutation. There should be 2-3 independent (I do not remember exactly) occurrences of the mutations to define a new subclade. If there is a full sequence and the sequence is submitted to Genbank (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/genbank/) then Mannis van Oven (http://www.phylotree.org/) when updating the tree reviews all new submissions to Genbank and if based on scientific procedures defines new subclades.

Here is the facebook closed group - The mtDNA H Haplogroup Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/396615513748743/

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:36 am
When you join a mtDNA project with full genome results, you also need to share the coding region results with the project administrators so that they can see if you match closely with existing project members.

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:27 pm
jbruce wrote:I recently was tested as belonging to haplogroup H23 by FTDNA. The furthest back I can go on my maternal line is 1701 (Barbara Stroehle, born Schopfloch, Wuerttemberg, Germany).

I take it that, because haplogroup H23 and haplogroup H* vary only in respect of one marker, the 10211T marker, haplogroup H23 must be relatively old. A recent publication (Brotherton, 2013) indicates that the marker has been found in a prehistoric individual (“HAL36”) inhumed in Halberstadt, Germany, who is thought to belong to the Neolithic Period Linearbandkeramick (LBK) Culture (~5000 B.C.). Is there any age estimate for H23?

The Phylotree Website did not list either the 10211T marker or Haplogroup H23 until its “Build 3” (1 March 2009). There the marker is associated with haplogroup H33—however, beginning with “Build 4” (10 May 2009), it has always been associated with haplogroup H23. Was it not listed because it is so rare today? Or because of testing limitations?

I have three extra markers: 315.1C; 16189C; and 16519C. I understand that the 16189C marker would probably be found in every person who belongs to haplogroup H23. What about the other two markers?


Your result at 16189C is unique within H23, but this is very common mutation site over all, so it is possible it could be a recent mutation in your maternal line. Reporting of results at 16519 is a bit confusing as it depends on whether your reference is RSRS or rCRS. Your result of 16519C is very common within H and also in H23, but this marker is generally ignored as it is often considered to be a highly variable marker.

The age estimate for H23 is difficult - based on HAL36, H23 should be at least 6000 years old, but if we calculate the diversity in present day H23, it is very low with an average of 0.56 mutations in 26 samples. As a result, Behar has an age estimate of about 2300 years +/- 2800 years. Perhaps when we get a larger sample size we will get an age estimate more consistent with HAL36, and this illustrates the uncertainty in estimating ages based on small sample sizes of present day populations.

One possible explanation is that present day all H23 descend from a more recent of HAL36, say 2000-3000 years ago who by chance had not accumulated any mutations in that interval.

Gail
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
MtDNA:
H95a
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:20 am
while awaiting a new marker for myself, I ran BLAST in ncbi and only get matches with H23 people ...only 2 matches.
NO other markers appear.
What does this indicate as I do not know what I am doing in regards to BLAST
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

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