Has H1m something to do with the Italian Refugium?


Posts: 2409
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:39 am
We know that Ian Logan, beyond his great merits in the study of the mtDNA, is Eastward oriented, and he is in company of others like Jean Manco, Gail Tonnesen etc. But he lost his bet with me about the origin of that mt H with 12 extra mutations (the origin of JN573371 is definitely from Italy, whereas I am waiting to know something more careful about her surname, but knowing only the name, that person was Italian, married in Italy and migrated to US on 1908). But why mt H1m should be from Middle East only because he found a Druze amongst them whereas the great part of them are from Europe?
CRS A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G A15326G
H G3010A
H1m G15323A
1. AY495106.2(European) Coble H1m 07-JAN-2008
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G C12341T G15323A A15326G T16519C
2 AY495152(European) Coble H1m 07-JAN-2008
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G G16129A T16519C
3. DQ112940.2(Europe) Kivisild H1m 18-OCT-2006
A750G A1438G A2294R G3010A A4769G A8860G C12341T G15323A A15326G
4. FJ917552 FTDNA H1m 27-APR-2009
T152C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G T9615C G15323A A15326G T16519C
5. JQ065050(Scottish) FTDNA H1m 07-DEC-2011
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G C16169T A16241G T16519C
6. JQ704193(England) Behar H1m 07-APR-2012
C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G G4820A A8860G A9604G T11878C C14136T G15323A A15326G A16299G T16519C
7. JQ705493 Behar H1m 07-APR-2012
C150T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4136G T4204C A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G T16519C
8. KJ446300(HGDP00578-Druze) Zheng H1m 26-APR-2014
T146C C150T A263G A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8645G A8860G G15323A A15326G C16192T T16519C
.. 23andMe('Tara') H1m
263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 16519C
.. 23andMe('mrs'-1481) H1m
150T 263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 16278T 16519C
.. 23andMe('Paolo Sizzi'-1561) H1m
263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 15326G 16311C 16519C

H1m1 T146C C4171T A9468G

9. JQ703995(Germany) Behar H1m1 07-APR-2012
T146C A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A C4171T A4769G A8860G A9468G G9655A G15323A A15326G T16519C
10. JQ704459(Ireland) Behar H1m1 07-APR-2012
T146C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A C4171T A4769G T5483C A8860G A9058G A9468G G15323A A15326G T16519C
---------------------------------------------------------

Sample Id: MC296
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C T9615C
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T
Country: United States
Geography: VA

Sample Id: MC603
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C16169T A16241G
Country: Scotland
Geography: Argyll

Sample Id: MC664
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C16169T A16241G
Country: Scotland

Sample Id: MC2635 NCBI Id: JQ704193
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; G4820A; A9604G; T11878C; C14136T; A16299G;
Country: England
Reference: Behar 2012b

Sample Id: MC3935 NCBI Id: JQ705493
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; A4136G; T4204C;
Reference: Behar 2012b

Sample Id: MC4056
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C T9615C
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list Geography: TN

Sample Id: MC14481 NCBI Id: AY495106
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C12341T;
Reference: Coble 2004

Sample Id: MC14527 NCBI Id: AY495152
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A16129G(L2'3'4'6);
Reference: Coble 2004

Sample Id: MC18459 NCBI Id: FJ917552
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T9615C;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T(L2'3'4'5'6);
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA

Sample Id: MC21173 NCBI Id: JQ065050
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C16169T; A16241G;
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
---------------------
KJ446300 (the Druze) has T146C, like all the H1m1, and probably is a subclade of H1m, thus not the most ancient, found so far only in Europe. It is true that the persons tested from 23andMe aren't tested for 146, but we may reasonably presuppose that they are negative, like all the other Europeans, and it has to be verified if the origin could be in the Italian Refugium, whose sample seems to be the closest to the origin. It is also 150C, whereas other Europeans and the Druze is 150T. We may thus presuppose that to a first subclade with 150T in heteroplasmy derived others with 146C and also the H1m1 subclade, all European in origin.
User avatar
Posts: 542
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:19 am
Location: Family Line Veneto ( italy ) since ~1600
YDNA:
T1a2-Z19945
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H95a
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:04 pm
Gioiello wrote:We know that Ian Logan, beyond his great merits in the study of the mtDNA, is Eastward oriented, and he is in company of others like Jean Manco, Gail Tonnesen etc. But he lost his bet with me about the origin of that mt H with 12 extra mutations (the origin of JN573371 is definitely from Italy, whereas I am waiting to know something more careful about her surname, but knowing only the name, that person was Italian, married in Italy and migrated to US on 1908). But why mt H1m should be from Middle East only because he found a Druze amongst them whereas the great part of them are from Europe?
CRS A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G A15326G
H G3010A
H1m G15323A
1. AY495106.2(European) Coble H1m 07-JAN-2008
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G C12341T G15323A A15326G T16519C
2 AY495152(European) Coble H1m 07-JAN-2008
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G G16129A T16519C
3. DQ112940.2(Europe) Kivisild H1m 18-OCT-2006
A750G A1438G A2294R G3010A A4769G A8860G C12341T G15323A A15326G
4. FJ917552 FTDNA H1m 27-APR-2009
T152C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G T9615C G15323A A15326G T16519C
5. JQ065050(Scottish) FTDNA H1m 07-DEC-2011
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G C16169T A16241G T16519C
6. JQ704193(England) Behar H1m 07-APR-2012
C150T A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G G4820A A8860G A9604G T11878C C14136T G15323A A15326G A16299G T16519C
7. JQ705493 Behar H1m 07-APR-2012
C150T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A A4136G T4204C A4769G A8860G G15323A A15326G T16519C
8. KJ446300(HGDP00578-Druze) Zheng H1m 26-APR-2014
T146C C150T A263G A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A8645G A8860G G15323A A15326G C16192T T16519C
.. 23andMe('Tara') H1m
263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 16519C
.. 23andMe('mrs'-1481) H1m
150T 263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 16278T 16519C
.. 23andMe('Paolo Sizzi'-1561) H1m
263G 750G 1438G 3010A 4769G 8860G 15323A 15326G 16311C 16519C

H1m1 T146C C4171T A9468G

9. JQ703995(Germany) Behar H1m1 07-APR-2012
T146C A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A C4171T A4769G A8860G A9468G G9655A G15323A A15326G T16519C
10. JQ704459(Ireland) Behar H1m1 07-APR-2012
T146C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G3010A C4171T A4769G T5483C A8860G A9058G A9468G G15323A A15326G T16519C
---------------------------------------------------------

Sample Id: MC296
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C T9615C
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T
Country: United States
Geography: VA

Sample Id: MC603
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C16169T A16241G
Country: Scotland
Geography: Argyll

Sample Id: MC664
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C16169T A16241G
Country: Scotland

Sample Id: MC2635 NCBI Id: JQ704193
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; G4820A; A9604G; T11878C; C14136T; A16299G;
Country: England
Reference: Behar 2012b

Sample Id: MC3935 NCBI Id: JQ705493
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; A4136G; T4204C;
Reference: Behar 2012b

Sample Id: MC4056
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C T9615C
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list Geography: TN

Sample Id: MC14481 NCBI Id: AY495106
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C12341T;
Reference: Coble 2004

Sample Id: MC14527 NCBI Id: AY495152
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A16129G(L2'3'4'6);
Reference: Coble 2004

Sample Id: MC18459 NCBI Id: FJ917552
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T9615C;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T(L2'3'4'5'6);
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA

Sample Id: MC21173 NCBI Id: JQ065050
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C16169T; A16241G;
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
---------------------
KJ446300 (the Druze) has T146C, like all the H1m1, and probably is a subclade of H1m, thus not the most ancient, found so far only in Europe. It is true that the persons tested from 23andMe aren't tested for 146, but we may reasonably presuppose that they are negative, like all the other Europeans, and it has to be verified if the origin could be in the Italian Refugium, whose sample seems to be the closest to the origin. It is also 150C, whereas other Europeans and the Druze is 150T. We may thus presuppose that to a first subclade with 150T in heteroplasmy derived others with 146C and also the H1m1 subclade, all European in origin.



are you sure the numbers are not croatian like H85 in this article
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0105090

I agree in tha acient times, modern croatia and northern-central italy was one land mass
Fathers mtdna - T2b17 ...back to 1860 Bucciol line
Grandfathers mtdna - T1a1e ...back to 1820 Mestriner line
Sons Mtdna - K1a4 ....back to 1840 Tesser line
Maternal grandfather ydna - Ild-P109

Posts: 2409
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:23 pm
stoeni wrote:are you sure the numbers are not croatian like H85 in this article
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0105090

I agree in tha acient times, modern croatia and northern-central italy was one land mass


Yes, they were one land mass. See also these mtDNA from the Balkans from a recent paper probably sponsored from the same people we know and published from Ian Logan on Rootsweb, which would have demonstrated a link of the Balkans with Middle East, but these R0a2 and R0a2c are very old, very different from the Arabian ones and linked with the Italian ones about which I have written tons of letters. Do you remember when I said that these haplogroups came from Paleolithic Europe and not from Middle East?

KM103653(CCB) Kovacevic Haplogroup K1a13a 22-AUG-2014
A73G T146C T195C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 574.1A A750G T1189C A1438G G1709A A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G T8870C G9055A A9545G G9548A T9698C A10398G A10550G C11236T T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
KM103654(CCB) Kovacevic Haplogroup R0a2c 22-AUG-2014
C64T G66A A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G C13188T C14766T A15326G T15674C A15924G T16126C C16168T C16266T T16304C T16362C
KM103655(Bosnia) Kovacevic Haplogroup K1a13a 22-AUG-2014
A73G T146C T195C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G G1709A A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G T8870C G9055A A9545G G9548A T9698C A10398G A10550G C11236T T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
KM103656(CC) Kovacevic Haplogroup N1a1a1a1 22-AUG-2014
A73G T152C T199C T204C G207A A263G T669C A750G A1438G G1719A A2706G C3107N T3336C A4769G T4838C A5315G C7028T C8164T A8860G A8901G G9300A T10238C A10398G G11719A G12501A C12705T A13780G C14766T G15043A A15326G C16147A T16172C C16223T C16248T C16320T C16355T T16519C
KM103657(Croatia) Kovacevic Haplogroup K1a13a 22-AUG-2014
A73G T146C T195C A263G C497T A750G T1189C A1438G G1709A A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G T8870C G9055A A9545G T9698C A10398G A10550G C11236T T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
KM103658(Croatia) Kovacevic Haplogroup K1a13a 22-AUG-2014
A73G T146C T195C A263G C497T A750G T1189C A1438G G1709A A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G T8870C G9055A A9545G G9548A T9698C A10398G A10550G C11236T T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16325C T16519C
KM103659(Macedonia) Kovacevic Haplogroup R0a2 22-AUG-2014
C64T T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G T1700C A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T11485C C13188T C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C C16222T A16258C G16319A T16362C T16519C

Posts: 2409
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:49 am
Gioiello wrote: Do you remember when I said that these haplogroups came from Paleolithic Europe and not from Middle East?


R0a2k T12295C
70. JF717355(Italy) Achilli R0a2k 14-SEP-2011
60.1T C64T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T12295C C13188T A13651G C14766T A15326G T15674C T16126C A16230G T16362C A16497G
------------------------------------------
R0a2k T12295C
56. JF717355(Italy) Achilli R0a2k 14-SEP-2011
60.1T C64T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T12295C C13188T A13651G C14766T A15326G T15674C T16126C A16230G T16362C A16497G
R0a2k1 G3531A T3644C G3918A T5557C A10398G C16114T T16325C
57. HM185253(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2619G A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G G11453A T12295C C13188T T14634C C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C
58. HM185254(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G T12295C C13188T C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C
----------------------------------------------
Home Forum Population Genetics Y-Chromosome (Y-DNA) Haplogroups R R1b Early Subclades
Federighi is going to be tested for Geno 2.0
Today, 06:05 PM #11 Joe B Posts 291
Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
Federighi's kit, posted to Genographic on 10 January, is at the final stage (quality control), thus it has already been tested. Mangino sent his sample (already c/o FTDNA) in the last days of last year or at the beginning of this year: where has it ended now?
And Mattoli and his L277?
P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!
FTDNA must be behind schedule with SNP testing and maybe Geno 2.0 too. My guess is the same lab personnal are tied up with Big Y and the inherent problems of a new product launch. L277/S334.1 can be a tricky one to test. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post25438

Today, 06:31 PM #12 Humanist Posts 1,016
Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
P.S. For Federighi will have also the coding region of his R0a2k!
Is R0a2 not an exceedingly Arabian/East African lineage?
Today, 07:11 PM #13 Rathna Posts 1,074
Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
Is R0a2 not an exceedingly Arabian/East African lineage?
Perhaps you know I think having demonstrated from many years the other way around, i.e. that the origin of R0a, and after of HV and H is in Italy or in Europe. In the specific case of my cousin, he has been tested by SMGF and has the same HVRI and II of this Italian, and people of Yemen are a subclade of it, like in other many cases:
R0a2k T12295C
56. JF717355(Italy) Achilli R0a2k 14-SEP-2011
60.1T C64T A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T12295C C13188T A13651G C14766T A15326G T15674C T16126C A16230G T16362C A16497G
R0a2k1 G3531A T3644C G3918A T5557C A10398G C16114T T16325C
57. HM185253(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2619G A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G G11453A T12295C C13188T T14634C C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C
58. HM185254(Yemen)Cerny R0a2k1 31-JUL-2010
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G G3531A T3644C T3847C G3918A A4769G T5557C C7028T A8860G A10398G T12295C C13188T C14766T A15326G T15674C C16114T T16126C T16325C T16362C T16519C
FTDNA writes this, even though forbids to publish it, but I published it on 2012 on eng.molgen:
"Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.
USAGE POLICY: Use of the above Haplogroup description requires written permission from Gene by Gene".
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Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=622
Page 1 of 1
Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 am
by Gioiello
I have written a lot about mtDNA R0a2. A few time ago it seemed that also 23andMe accepted that it was born in Europe, but after, perhaps for the papers of Cerny et al., they decided for an origin in Middle East. In the last reassessment of Behar 2012b I have some difficulties in finding the “Tuscan” R0a with HVRI 16126C 16230G 16362C 16497G and 16126C 16266T 16362C.
Now a friend of mine sends me the 23andMe of his father from Campania. It is an R0a2c, said by Cerny et al. “restricted to the Arabian Peninsula” (Internal diversification of mitochondrial haplogroup R0a reveals Last Glacial Maximum demographic expansion in South Arabia, p. 9).
These are the mutations in the 23andMe data:
58C 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 6975T 7028T 8860G 13188T
14766T 15326G 15674C 16304G 16311C 16362C
and this is the R0a2c/DQ904238
T59A 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C A750G A1438G A2355G T2442C A2706G T3847C A4769G C7028T A8860G T13095C C13188T C14766T A15326G C15661T T15674C T16126C T16304C T16311C T16362C
We can see that the Italian has the mutations 4232T and 6975T in the CR and the Arab the mutations 13095C and 15661T. Then certainly they are separated from many thousands of years and the Italian sample isn’t derived in recent times from an introgression from MiddLe East.
On Mitosearch we have two other samples with these mutations (16126 16304 16311 16362): 694ZY from Germany and 7GR64 from Sicily (Italy).
Re: Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:12 pm
by Gioiello
Perhaps it isn’t by chance that the R0a2 present in Europe are the most ancient:
Roa2 14149.8 +/- 2387.3
R0a2c 10546.1 +/- 6060.1
R0a2f 12626.3 +/- 3323.0
and I don’t speak of the R0ab found in Sicily: 22428.3 +/- 6156.3
From South to North or from North to South after the Last Glacial Maximum.
Re: Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:45 pm
by Gioiello
(from 23andme)
Brellion: So what does this mean for those of us who don't know much about how this stuff works? Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
Gioiello: @Brellion First of all you could send me your 23andme mtDNA. Go to your account, browse raw data, password, secret answer, load raw data, go to the bottom, copy and paste your mt, send my address gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com. I am very curious to see an R0a2 from the Isles.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
Shimmy1988: @GioielloI don't know if this will help you out, but many of these haplogroups including the haplogroup R0a can be found in frequencies in different areas of the world and these haplogroups also trace maternal or paternal lineage going back thousands of years, that unless you know for sure where your maternal lineage traces to and unless you also find people that match your mitochondrial sequence, it can be hard to narrow down the origins of your haplogroup. From what I could read about haplogroup R0a, it is more of a Middle Eastern haplogroup, but it can be found in diverse populations such as Jews, Arab, Northern African, and even European and East African populations. It does appear that your maternal lineage could trace back to the Middle East which some Europeans do find that they do have more Middle Eastern haplogroups due either to migration or intermixing. I wish you luck in your search. :)Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
Gioiello: @Shimmy1988I thank you for your response, but my mitochondrial haplogroup isn't R0a2: I am only studying it for my theories about the Italian Refugium. My haplogroup is K1a1b1e, born certainly in Italy about 7000 years ago and diffused to the British Isles with the mutation 477.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
Shimmy1988: @GioielloOk. Hopefully others with this haplogroup can get a general idea of it from what I posted. I apologize for assuming you were a part of this haplogroup.Sep 13, 2012 (1 day ago)
Dorolga: @ Gioello:"We can see that the Italian has the mutations 4232T and 6975T in the CR and the Arab the mutations 13095C and 15661T. Then certainly they are separated from many thousands of years and the Italian sample isn’t derived in recent times from an introgression from MiddLe East."How do you know from the above mutations that they separated many thousands of years ago and not say 800 years ago subsequent to the Arab conquest of Siciliy between 902-1061?Sep 14, 2012 (14 hours ago)
Kw Kw Lau: @Gioiello, do you research on other haplogroup? Mt-haplogroup Z? Are there people doing research of mt-haplogroup Z?Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)
Gioiello: @ Kw Kw Lau I haven't been interested so far to hg. Z, because it is an Asian one and practically not found in Europe, but it may be studied like every other haplogroup.Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)
Gioiello: @ Dorolga One mutation in the Coding Region may value also 7800 years if the mutation is synonymous. I'll look at it. Anyway 2 mutations =10,000 years was a calculation on average. They could be also much more, above all because haplogroup J/T and R0a probably have a slowest mutation rate than other haplogroups.Sep 15, 2012 (12 hours ago)
Gioiello: 4232T isn't a mutations, then remains only 4975T, which is non synonymous one and also a transversion. Anyway the Italian sample is tested only on about 2500 SNPs out of 16569, and we should get an FGS to know all the mutations. The Arab sample maintains its two mutations in the Coding Region which are synonymous ones and thus between the Italian and the Arab mtDNA there is a separation of at least 15,000 years. The Arab samples isn't from Arabia but from Middle East, because Arabia was peopled from Middle East after the LGM. If these R0a are from Middle East (as also 23andme supports) or from Europe (as I support) shall be ascertained by other studies. Unfortunately I must say that many Italians, above all from South Italy and Sicily, convinced (wrongly) to be of Arab, Jewish or elsewhere from Middle East origin, don't collaborate by the exam of their mtDNA, which frequently gets the most ancient haplotypes. But also this problem will be solved.Sep 15, 2012 (7 hours ago)
Brellion: Gioiello, I have my whole genome as a zipped file. I don't fully understand your instructions, as I don't see anywhere to just download my mtDNA information from the site. Do you want me to unzip my genome file and just send you the mtDNA part? Also, I match a Sicilian-descended person on the X-chromosome, but not on atDNA. So I must have more recent Southern European admixture somewhere.Sep 15, 2012 (2 hours ago)
Gioiello: · Brellion, you have your data on your 23andme account. If you click on “account” (beside your name; above right), you have this:· My Profile· Settings· Manage Sharing· Browse Raw DataClick “browse raw data”There appears “download raw data”They ask your password and Secret answerAt the bottom there are “Download data”. Click.It appear the zip file. If you open it with OK, you have all your data tested by 23andme, from chromosome 1 to mt at the bottom. If you go at the bottom, you can upload all the mtDNA SNPs and you may send them to me. My address is: gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com. End.Sep 15, 2012 (2 hours ago)
Brellion: Okay, thanks for the longer explanation. I'll send it to you now.Sep 15, 2012 (1 hour ago)
Gioiello: I have to do some corrections to my analysis. The mutations of the Italian from Campania cited above are:
58C 64T 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 7028T8860G 13188T 14766T 15326G 15674C 16126C 16304G 16311C 16362C
Even though tested on less than 2500 SNPs out of 16569, he is clearly hg. R0a2c with the mutation 16311C like the Arab DQ904238. He hasn’t other mutations, whereas DQ904238 has T13095C and C15661T. We don’t know if the Italian person has other mutations, not being tested by an FGS. Anyway we can say that it is more likely that the Arab descend from the Italian rather than the other way around.
The mutations of Brellion are:
64T 263G 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3847C 4232T 4769G 7028T 8860G 13188T 14766T 15326C 15674C 16126C 16362C
He is R0a2 for the mutation A2355G.
For 14544G he isn’t R0a2a
For 5237G he isn’t R0a2b
For 16304T he isn’t R0a2c
For 3438G he isn’t R0a2d
For 7256C he isn’t R0a2e
For 8251G he isn’t R0a2f
For 9128T he isn’t R0a2g
For 16172T he isn’t R0a2h
For 9337T he isn’t R0a2i
12295 for R0a2k isn’t tested, but for 3531G he isn’t R0a2k1
The mutations of R0a2l aren’t tested
For 4767A he isn’t R0a2m
Then more likely Brellion is R0a2*, the most ancient and original, like the R0a2* found in Tuscany and Central Italy.I believe once more that R0a is born in Europe, probably in the Italian Refugium, and diffused to Middle East after the Last Glacial Maximum, as also 23andMe wrote till a few time ago, before the last paper of Cerny et al.Sep 15, 2012 (moments ago)
Brellion: Thank you for running the test."I believe once more that R0a is born in Europe, probably in the Italian Refugium, and diffused to Middle East after the Last Glacial Maximum, as also 23andMe wrote till a few time ago, before the last paper of Cerny et al."Has anyone saved what 23andme wrote about R0a before they changed it?Sep 15, 2012 (1 minute ago)
Gioiello: This is what FTDNA writes about hg.R0a:
Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.
And I have a Tuscan R0a2 tested by FTDNA:
60.1T 64T 263G 309.1C 315.1C 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3447G 3847C 4769G 5585A 7028T 8860G 11914A 12885T 13188T 14766T 15326G 15626T 15674C 16126C 16266T 16362C Sep 15, 2012 (moments ago)
Re: Is mtDNA R0a2c only Arab?
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:34 am
by Gioiello
Brellion: Very interesting! I hadn't heard this alternate explanation of the origin of R0a. We'll have to see what subsequent studies confirm. When and why would there be migration from Europe to the Middle East? I thought most of the migration went the other way, from the Middle East into Europe.Sep 15, 2012 (7 hours ago)
Gioiello: This is another prejudice, that of "ex Oriente lux", which, having strong religious assumptions, is hard to demolish. By the distributions of many haplogroups we may infer that after the Last Glacial Maximum many haplogroups expanded from South Europe not only to North Europe but also to the Russian Plane (see Malyarchuk's papers) and to Middle East. The religious prejudice about mtDNA R0a is due to the fact that this implicates hg. H. In another side also K (see how is fundamental K1a1b1a for the Jewish ancestry), but also the Y R (at least from R1b1*), about which I am doing a struggle from many years, amongst many banishments from many forums.Sep 15, 2012 (4 minutes ago)
----------------------------------------------------------
Haplogroup R0a2k has 1 samples
Sample Id: MC20827 NCBI Id: JF717355
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A13651G; A16497G;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] G16230A(L1'2'3'4'5'6); T58C(R0a'b);
Reference: Achilli 2011
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Topic: R0a2 in Italy again (Read 495 times)
Maliclavelli Posts: 2091
R0a2 in Italy again
« on: October 04, 2011, 12:07:06 PM » Reply with quote Modify message
Ian Logan has signalled on Rootsweb new accessions to GenBank, some FGS-s from Schizophrenic or Bipolar patients from Chioggia, Italy (Bertolin,C., Barlati,S., Vettori,A., Perini,G., Peruzzi,P., Mostacciuolo,M.L. and Vazza,G.'Analysis of complete mitochondrial genomes of patients with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder'). The results are apparently weird, but they are very reliable and derive from the Ph.D. thesis of Cinzia Bertolin. From her thesis (page 78) I extract an interesting R0a2, which demonstrates once more its ancient presence in Italy:
104A, 126C, 192T, 362C
We are waiting that the FGS is published on GenBank.
Re: R0a2 in Italy again
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 01:48:54 PM »
The closest person to her on Mitosearch is 8YNBU from Cicciano, Naples, Italy:
16104A
16126C
16189C
16362C
-------------------------------------------------------
CRS 263 750 1438 2706 4769 7028 8860 14766 15326
R0 73 11719
R0a (T58C) C64T T2442C T3847C C13188T T16126C T16362C
1. JF717361(Italy) Achilli R0a 14-SEP-2011
T58C C64T A93G T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G G1719A T2442C A2706G A4769G G4924A T5205C C7028T T8772C A8860G G9055A T10101C G10775A A11764G C14766T A15326G A15613G A15628G C16301T T16362C
60.1T
2. EU597493(Kalash,Pakistan Hartmann) R0a 06-APR-2008
T58C 60.1T C64T A263G 309.1C 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G G1958A T2442C A2706G T3456C T3847C A4769G A5180G G5417A G6915A C7028T C8522T T8618C A8860G A8938G C9785T T11482C C13188T C14766T A15326G T16362C T16519C
R0a2'3 T15674C
R0a2 A2355G
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