H7

User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Dunham, Québec, Canada
YDNA:
R1b1-Z150/S257
MtDNA:
H7*
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:02 am
I cannot say that the cladistic developments that occured to haplogroup H7 over recent years was not interesting. Not more than looking at a bush growing new twigs. I have been watching the H7 bush grow over the last 10 years. I did not really learn something relevant. No recurrent patterm was found correlating between any of the subclades of this H7 arborescence and some geographical distribution, or historical/ethnical variables.
This information concerning our mtDNA - the list of variations contained, its belonging to a precise haplogroup and subclade -- could serve genuine genealogy.

No, watching others doing cladistics, is not the same as doing genealogy.
Cladistics represent phylogenic descent, while genealogy represents engendering descent.
And a taxonomy is not a genealogical tree.

Two steps need to be done to enter into a genealogical study using DNA:
1. Divulgate all the variations contained in our mitochondrial genome. Here is my own list:
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A4793G A8860G A15326G T16519C
It is thus H7* with access # AY495120 (European) at GenBank
2. Divulgate our matrilineage. It supposes doing some documentary research. Here is my matrilineage starting with my grand-mother. I indicate the husband's name and place of marriage because this information is essential for other genealogists to compare with their own documentation.

1. BRAULT Léa m: SAVARIA Lionel in 1905 Everyl, Mass., ÉU
2. PROVOST Marie-Éva m: BRAULT Cyprien in 1883 Notre Dame de Stanbridge, Québec, Can
3. VIOLI Joséphine m: PRÉVOST Léon in 1854 Henryville (Iberville), Québec, Can
4. AUDET dit LEMAY Marie-Anne m: VIOLI Joseph Abel in 1826 L'Acadie-St-Jean, Québec, Can
5. ST-LOUIS Josephte m: LEMAY dit AUDET Charles in 1794 Trois-Rivières, Québec, Can
6. THERRIEN Marie Charles m: LAMPRON LACHARITÉ DÉFOSSÉ ST-LOUIS Jean Baptiste in 1766 Nicolet, Québec, Can
7. LEFEBVRE DESCOTEAUX COURVILLE Marie Charlotte m: THERRIEN Thomas in 1737 Nicolet, Québec, Can
8. COURIER BOURGUIGNON Marie Madeleine m: LEFEBVRE DESCOTEAUX COURVILLE Nicolas in 1717 Baie-du-Febvre, Québec, Can
9. VANASSE Marie Madeleine m: COURIER BOURGUIGNON Mathieu in 1697 Trois-Rivières, Québec, Can
10. FOURNIER Jeanne (Fille du Roi; b:c1650) m: VANASSE François in 1671, Cap de la Madeleine, Québec, Canada
11. BUSOU, Jeanne b:c:1633 m: FOURNIER, Pierre c:1650 France

If you have documented your own matrilineage (line of mothers) and one of the couples in the above list is also part of your own list, please contact me even if we don't match exactly on mtDNA. Why? Not matching exactly on mtDNA could entail that one of us has made an error in documenting his/her genealogy. It could also mean that our specific line of mothers has gained or lost variations.

Matching exactly on H7 signature and sharing some of these mothers would entail that our shared mtDNA signature is also that of our Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA). This concordance of DNA signatures together with convergence on a MRCA is called triangulation.

I encourage you to do the same to help genealogist to know more about their relatively recent ancestry.
You can use this forum to do it.
There is no point in hiding this information under the pretext that it could reveal ugly hereditary diseases.
This is greatly exagereted. Use a pseudo if you wish.
Last edited by JacquesBeaugrand on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jacques BEAUGRAND

French Heritage DNA project http://www.frenchdna.org
Beaugrand-Champagne project http://www.beaugrand.ca
H7 mt Genome group http://www.H7mt.org

R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+)
H7*

Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:55 pm
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:03 pm
Jacques, as you probably know, you and I are a 2-step match in mtDNACommunity, but the only values we share of the ones you posted above are 315.1C and A4793G. I've got part of my mother's lineage back to the mid-18th century, but we don't share any names in common. However, her maiden name is Bonafede, the French variant are Bonafed, Bonfey, and Bonfoi, and all of those are recorded in a book on medieval French Jewish surnames.
mtDNA H7* (Cerda, Sicily)
yDNA J-Z2324/PF4843 (Villavallelonga, Abruzzo, Italy)
aDNA ~55% European, 45% Middle Eastern

Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:55 pm
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:06 pm
O R wrote:Yes I did, H7e as well - they use the same algorithm. My father is plain H7 as well so not that shabby!


Any more H7s out there?


Nice to know your father and I are related! (Yes, I know it was probably a VERY long time ago.) Approximately 16% of my FTDNA H7 HVR1 matches are listed as Jewish, but I don't know their subclades, while quite a number of the others indicate East European origins; perhaps some of those are Jewish as well. My only high resolution match lists Germany as country of origin.
mtDNA H7* (Cerda, Sicily)
yDNA J-Z2324/PF4843 (Villavallelonga, Abruzzo, Italy)
aDNA ~55% European, 45% Middle Eastern
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Dunham, Québec, Canada
YDNA:
R1b1-Z150/S257
MtDNA:
H7*
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:16 am
VinceP wrote:Jacques, as you probably know, you and I are a 2-step match in mtDNACommunity, but the only values we share of the ones you posted above are 315.1C and A4793G. I've got part of my mother's lineage back to the mid-18th century, but we don't share any names in common. However, her maiden name is Bonafede, the French variant are Bonafed, Bonfey, and Bonfoi, and all of those are recorded in a book on medieval French Jewish surnames.


Do you have this medieval book at hand to consult?
I would like to know if the surname Violi, Violy or Fioli is part of this list.
This ancestor of mine came from the village of Savignano Sul Panaro, near Modena, Emilia Romagna, Italia.

He was a soldier of Napoleon Bonaparte made prisoner by the English at Malta and sent to Quebec/Canada to stop the advance of the USA army in 1813 at the battle of Plattsburgh (NY).
Jacques BEAUGRAND

French Heritage DNA project http://www.frenchdna.org
Beaugrand-Champagne project http://www.beaugrand.ca
H7 mt Genome group http://www.H7mt.org

R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+)
H7*

Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:55 pm
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:02 pm
The name of the book is "Les noms des Israelites en France". I don't own a copy of it; I found it as an undergrad many years ago, and some university libraries still have copies of it. I've just requested a copy through inter-library loan, and I'll be happy to check those names for you once I get it, which could be at least a few weeks.
mtDNA H7* (Cerda, Sicily)
yDNA J-Z2324/PF4843 (Villavallelonga, Abruzzo, Italy)
aDNA ~55% European, 45% Middle Eastern
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Dunham, Québec, Canada
YDNA:
R1b1-Z150/S257
MtDNA:
H7*
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:03 pm
VinceP wrote:The name of the book is "Les noms des Israelites en France". I don't own a copy of it; I found it as an undergrad many years ago, and some university libraries still have copies of it. I've just requested a copy through inter-library loan, and I'll be happy to check those names for you once I get it, which could be at least a few weeks.



I just searched the web for "Les noms des Israelites en France" and found this small database http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/levy/
It goes with Lévy's book but for first names (pre-nome) of men and women.

I am completely ignorant about on how (first) names (nome) and surnames (cognome) were attributed according to the Israelite tradition ...

Or, did they carry nome+cognome or nome + [da Napoli] or the like ?

Grazie
Jacques BEAUGRAND

French Heritage DNA project http://www.frenchdna.org
Beaugrand-Champagne project http://www.beaugrand.ca
H7 mt Genome group http://www.H7mt.org

R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+)
H7*

Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:07 am

YDNA:
R1a1 (L342+)
MtDNA:
H7e
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:27 am
Hi Jacques - H7e 16519C 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C 750G, 1438G, 4769G, 4793G, 8026T, 8860G, 9527T, 15326G Ashkenazi
Last edited by O R on Fri May 31, 2013 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:15 pm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:19 pm
Hi

I think I am H7.

I could do with some help.

My results are

Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
16519 T C
HVR2 REFERENCE SEQUENCE
Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
263 A G
309.1 C
315.1 C
CR REFERENCE SEQUENCE
Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
750 A G
1438 A G
3010 G A
4769 A G
4793 A G
8860 A G
15326 A G
15874 A G

Thanks.

What does the extra letter mean?
User avatar
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Dunham, Québec, Canada
YDNA:
R1b1-Z150/S257
MtDNA:
H7*
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:02 pm
andbro wrote:Hi

I think I am H7.

I could do with some help.

My results are

Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
16519 T C
HVR2 REFERENCE SEQUENCE
Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
263 A G
309.1 C
315.1 C
CR REFERENCE SEQUENCE
Show All Positions
Position CRS Your Result
750 A G
1438 A G
3010 G A
4769 A G
4793 A G
8860 A G
15326 A G
15874 A G

Thanks.

What does the extra letter mean?


Andbro,
Your signature is A750G A1438G G3010A A4769G A4793G A8860G A15326G A15874G

The first letter is that of a standard to which each mtDNA tested is compared at each locus (position)
It is called the rCRS, the revised Cambridge Reference Sequence.

For instance the rCRS has a Adenine base at position (locus) 750 but you have a Guanine at the same position.
You are thus at variance with the rCRS at that position.
The same with other variations.

Looking at http://www.PhyloTree.org, we can see that variation 4793G makes you enter H7.
All other variations are not part of the path that could lead to a subclade (subdivision)
once entered H7. They appeared before H7.

You were tested at 23andme don't you?

Thank you for sharing.
Jacques BEAUGRAND

French Heritage DNA project http://www.frenchdna.org
Beaugrand-Champagne project http://www.beaugrand.ca
H7 mt Genome group http://www.H7mt.org

R-U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150 > (familial L553+)
H7*

Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:55 pm
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:21 pm
Hi Jacques,

I've received the book and checked all your family names. The only one listed is Lefebvre, and the earliest documented use of that surname by a Jewish person is 1811. As for Violi, I checked a book on Italian surnames, and it most likely is a plural form of "viola". So it's possible that the person who first adopted that surname was the maker and/or the player of violas. The other possible explanation is that Violi is a truncated form of Violette, the color.
mtDNA H7* (Cerda, Sicily)
yDNA J-Z2324/PF4843 (Villavallelonga, Abruzzo, Italy)
aDNA ~55% European, 45% Middle Eastern
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