Also K1a17 from the Italian Refugium?


Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:17 pm
From Eupedia:
"K1a17 : found in the Near East (Turkey, Levant, Egypt)
K1a17a"

Is it reliable this statement? So far a few examples of this haplogroup were known. The base sample was this:
K1a17 [G247A!, T4561C, T15670C]
JQ706034 [Egypt] Behar Haplogroup [K1a17] 07-APR-2012
A73G G247A A263G C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G 3105.1N A3480G T4561C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T T14766C T14798C A15326G T15670C T16224C C16259T T16311C T16519C
The other two samples belonged to the subclade K1a17a:
K1a17a [G1719A C16260T]
JQ706064 Behar Haplogroup [K1a17a] 07-APR-2012
A73G A200G C242T G247A A263G C497T A750G T1189C A1438G G1719A A1811G A2706G 3105.1N A3480G T4454C T4561C A4769G A5030G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A A12900G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G G15466A T15670C T16224C C16260T T16311C T16519C
EU600361(Druze) Shlush Haplogroup [K1a] 18-MAY-2008
A73G G247A A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G G1719A A1811G A2706G A3480G T4561C T4733C A4769G C6357T C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C G9948A A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T15670C T16224C C16239T C16260T T16311C T16519C
But a few days ago an italian sample has been published:
JX153028(Italy) Raule Haplogroup K1a17 10-JAN-2014
A73G G247A A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4561C A4769G C7028T T7148C A8677M A8701R A8718R A8860G A9055G T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G G11719A G11902A A12308G G12372A T12892C C13854T C14167T T14180C C14766T T14798C A15326G T15670C T16224C T16311C A16343T T16519C
and belong to hg. K1a17. If we compare it with the Egyptian sample, this last seems more fundamental, with only a few mutations (T14766C, which is a topologically missed one, and C16259T), but is it true that the sample with less mutations is the most ancient? Isn't it rather true that the sample with less mutations comes from a restricted people carrying that haplotype and the sample with more mutations the other way around?
Certainly the Italian sample doesn't derive from the Egyptian one and how much time did it need for all these mutations?
T7148C A9055G (topologically missed one) G11902A TT12892C C13854T T14180C A16343T
and three heteroplasmies ("Heteroplasmy can be beneficial rather than detrimental insofar as centenarians show a higher than average degree of heteroplasmy")
A8677M A8701R A8718R

Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:00 pm
Of course there is another sample of (probable) K1a17 on the web, that I found on SMGF and put on Mitosearch:
Mutations
HVR1 HVR2
1. 16224C 00073G
2. 16311C 00195C
3. 16343T 00247A
4. 16519C 00263G
5. 00315.1C
6. 00497T

Haplogroup: K1a
Tested with: Other - SMGF
Contact person: Gioiello Tognoni Contact this user

Most distant known maternal ancestor on the direct female line
Last Name: Fucci
Country of Origin: Italy

Between these other two samples the first could be linked, the second not, lacking G247A. Also the Italian sample, having the mutation in T195C like the latter couldn't be an K1a17, but two mutation and the Italian origin make this very likely:
User ID HVR1 Mutations HVR2 Mutations
3MUGQ 224C, 311C, 343T, 519C Not Tested
PKQ6R 224C, 311C, 343T, 519C 073G, 195C, 263G, 315.1C, 497T

Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:32 pm
As the mutation A16343t is practically unknown on Phylotree, there is also the possibility that the second sample has lacked G247A (but also this mutation is very rare) or more likely that it belongs to a K1a17 before the mutation G247A or more likely in its heteroplasmy. Also this sample belongs to an European person.

Posts: 1893
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:23 am
Gioiello
I checked my YSNPS from the Chromo2 with RMS and we have all but 30 differences all R1b.The common R1b ancestor that we have is L11 and we have the same 150 plus Sardinian SNPs( PF series) which we got from a common ancestor above L11. That means the ancestor of RMS and I spent a lot of time in the Sardinian/Italian region before the birth of L11 in western Europe.
So Gioiello it is kudos to you as you have said all along that R1b1 originated in an Italian refuge.

Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:40 pm
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I checked my YSNPS from the Chromo2 with RMS and we have all but 30 differences all R1b.The common R1b ancestor that we have is L11 and we have the same 150 plus Sardinian SNPs( PF series) which we got from a common ancestor above L11. That means the ancestor of RMS and I spent a lot of time in the Sardinian/Italian region before the birth of L11 in western Europe.
So Gioiello it is kudos to you as you have said all along that R1b1 originated in an Italian refuge.


Dartraighe, I don't know if you have read on other forums what I wrote yesterday:
"This morning Paolo Francalacci has done a conference in my school till my retirement (Liceo Scientifico "XXV Aprile" of Pontedera) and I have spoken so long with him. He is one of the best geneticists all over the world (see his PF SNPs we all are using now). Sincerely I have had the impression not having much to learn about genetics, above all about the Y and the mt".
I should say that it isn't said that the SNPs found in Sardinian people and named PF from Paolo Francalacci are born in Sardinia or in Italy. I thought this about the 24 PF SNPs found in R-V88+ which link the Jewish cluster to the Iberian one (and I'd be curious to test the Italian Marchesi tested M269 by FTDNA but clearly an R-V88+, and Sardinia and above all Corsica has many R-M18+, subclade of R-V88+). In fact my theory (ad I wrote this to the same Cruciani) is that R-V88+ migrated to Africa not from Middle East but from North by sea, from Sardinia/Italy.
I'll study your SNPs and those of Rich's from Chromo2 by comparing them with mine, but Alexandra Kritz wrote to me (and I published the letter on Anthrogenica) that she is working about the Chromo2 SNPs and will publish something and write to us too.

Posts: 1893
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:04 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Gioiello
I checked my YSNPS from the Chromo2 with RMS and we have all but 30 differences all R1b.The common R1b ancestor that we have is L11 and we have the same 150 plus Sardinian SNPs( PF series) which we got from a common ancestor above L11. That means the ancestor of RMS and I spent a lot of time in the Sardinian/Italian region before the birth of L11 in western Europe.
So Gioiello it is kudos to you as you have said all along that R1b1 originated in an Italian refuge.


Dartraighe, I don't know if you have read on other forums what I wrote yesterday:
"This morning Paolo Francalacci has done a conference in my school till my retirement (Liceo Scientifico "XXV Aprile" of Pontedera) and I have spoken so long with him. He is one of the best geneticists all over the world (see his PF SNPs we all are using now). Sincerely I have had the impression not having much to learn about genetics, above all about the Y and the mt".
I should say that it isn't said that the SNPs found in Sardinian people and named PF from Paolo Francalacci are born in Sardinia or in Italy. I thought this about the 24 PF SNPs found in R-V88+ which link the Jewish cluster to the Iberian one (and I'd be curious to test the Italian Marchesi tested M269 by FTDNA but clearly an R-V88+, and Sardinia and above all Corsica has many R-M18+, subclade of R-V88+). In fact my theory (ad I wrote this to the same Cruciani) is that R-V88+ migrated to Africa not from Middle East but from North by sea, from Sardinia/Italy.
I'll study your SNPs and those of Rich's from Chromo2 by comparing them with mine, but Alexandra Kritz wrote to me (and I published the letter on Anthrogenica) that she is working about the Chromo2 SNPs and will publish something and write to us too.



The Y dna from La Brana is supposed to be C6. C and F separated more than 70,000 years ago. C is in Australia from 50-70000 ybp and 50,000 in America. The C6 dna from La Brana is only 8000 ybp. The R* in Siberia boy was 24000 ybp.
So how was F* found in an LBK grave from 7000 years ago? We are descended from F.
When we look at some branches today we have M269* and P312* but we also have a lot of other downstream branches as well. There are a lot of questions that cannot be answered as yet.
I would be surprised if some form of R did not show up in an ancient grave in western Europe.
The C haplogroup found its way all around the world 50,000 years ago and R could not travel over land from Siberia to western Europe.

Return to Haplogroup K (mtDNA)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest