Is K1c1f in Poland from Normans?


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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:39 pm
I have spoken a lot of my wife's and children mtDNA: K1c1f. My wife is from Sicily and, by collecting the closest samples to her in FTDNA FMS, I am convinced more and more that her mt is of Norman descent, even though we have always thought to probable Norman Y than mt in Sicily and Southern Italy. But her matches aren't only with Denmark and the Isles, but also with Central Europe and above all Poland. I am asking if these Polish mt-s could be of Norman descent. This I found on Wikipedia about Poland:

"Early expansion of the Gniezno Land tribe began very likely under Mieszko's grandfather Lestek, the probable real founder of the Piast state. Widukind's chronicle speaks of Mieszko ruling the Slavic nation called "Licicaviki", which was what Widukind made out of "Lestkowicy", the people of Lestko, or Lestek. Lestek was also reflected in the sagas of the Normans, who may have played a role in Poland's origins (an accumulation of 930–1000 period treasures is attributed to them). Siemomysł and then Mieszko continued after Lestek, whose tradition was alive within the Piast court when Bolesław III Wrymouth gave this name to one of his sons and Gallus Anonymous wrote his chronicle. The "Lechici" term popular later, synonymous with "Poles", like the legend of Lech, written in a chronicle at the turn of the 14th century, may also have been inspired by Mieszko's grandfather".
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Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:56 pm
Location: Poland
YDNA:
R1a-Z280+ Y2902+
MtDNA:
U4a1b1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:34 pm
Gioiello wrote:I have spoken a lot of my wife's and children mtDNA: K1c1f. My wife is from Sicily and, by collecting the closest samples to her in FTDNA FMS, I am convinced more and more that her mt is of Norman descent, even though we have always thought to probable Norman Y than mt in Sicily and Southern Italy. But her matches aren't only with Denmark and the Isles, but also with Central Europe and above all Poland. I am asking if these Polish mt-s could be of Norman descent. This I found on Wikipedia about Poland:


Possibility is very low. We have just some Norman weaponry and helmets but the presence of any larger norman group is unlikely - as any influential group they would've had many descendants(and they seem to don't). To speak about possible genetic Scandinavian influence - we have just 1(!) attested case of an R1a-Z284 and a subset of I1 that's somewhat related to the Danish haplotypes but still quite unique for Poland that makes case harder(I1-M253P cluster). And that's everything out of more than a thousand samples, the rest of a Germanic singatures seem to be continental.

Also, other proofs aren't in favour of a substantial Norman/Viking presence in Poland, a simple lack of any written historical sources that would imply so, the lack of a family stories concerning potential norman ancestry etc.
Last edited by Artmar on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:27 am
Artmar wrote:Possibility is very low. We have just some Norman weaponry and helmets but the presence of any larger norman group is unlikely - as any influential group they would've had many descendants(and they seem to don't). To speak about possible genetic Scandinavian influence - we have just 1(!) attested case of an R1a-Z284 and a subset of I1 that's somewhat related to the Danish haplotypes but still quite unique for Poland that makes case harder(I1-M253P cluster). And that's everything out of more than a thousand samples, the rest of a Germanic singatures seem to be continental.

Also, other proofs aren't in favour of a substantial Norman/Viking presence in Poland, a simple lack of any historical sources that would imply so, the lack of a family stories concerning potential norman ancestry etc.


I thank you for your response. These are the closest matches of my wife at the Full mt level:
Genetic Distance Name Most Distant Ancestor mtDNA Haplogroup Match Date
1 Mr. Henry Wysmulek
email note FMS FF
Sophia Lutrzykowski, 1927, Poland K1c1f 4/7/2014
1 Mr. Steven Charles Vernale
email note FMS FF
K1c1f 5/13/2013
1 Mrs. Sandra Ann Barkley McCollum
email note FMS FF
Mary Polly Morrow b1775 NC d1844 Tippah, MS K1c1f 5/9/2013
1 Mrs. Anna T. Knapp
email note FMS FF
Anna Rutneckey b. abt. 1860, Lublin, Poland K1c1f 10/14/2011
2 Katherine D D'Alexander
email note FMS FF
K1c1f 3/24/2014
3 Michele Buchanan
email note FMS FF
K1c1f 7/9/2014
3 Mrs. Jeanette Koval
email note FMS FF
Michael Solomon 1769-1842 Prussia, Augustina Bauer K1c1f 11/4/2013
3 Dr. Maria Anna Kirk
email note FMS
Katharina TIPPMANN K1c1f 3/4/2013
3 Mrs. helen jean meninger
email note FMS
Mary Nezolyk K1c1f 2/24/2012
3 Antje Felicitas Dauphin
email note FMS
Spindler K1c1f 10/14/2011
But only a person from Denmark, and another from Central Europe, match my wife in HVRI and II. Unfortunately they hadn't an FMS. Taking into account that K1c1 is overwhelming in Denmark, I think that the Norman hypothesis is the best. Have you other better hypotheses? Of course an origin in Slovakia/Poland is the same possible.

Name Most Distant Ancestor mtDNA Haplogroup Match Date
Mrs. Irene Nadia (de Lanskoy) Petersen
email note HVR2 FF
Renee or Rebecca Herzenberg, ca. 1843 - ca. 1899 K 8/9/2012
Jon Galina
email note HVR1
K 10/14/2011
I don't think now to an origin in the Italian Refugium that I think having demonstrated for many other Y and mt haplogroups, being so far my wife the unique sample of K1c1f found in Italy, and also K1c1 isn't so diffused here like other K subclades, like my K1a1b1e etc.
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Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:56 pm
Location: Poland
YDNA:
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:35 am
Gioiello wrote:But only a person from Denmark, and another from Central Europe, match my wife in HVRI and II. Unfortunately they hadn't an FMS. Taking into account that K1c1 is overwhelming in Denmark, I think that the Norman hypothesis is the best. Have you other better hypotheses? Of course an origin in Slovakia/Poland is the same possible.

I don't think now to an origin in the Italian Refugium that I think having demonstrated for many other Y and mt haplogroups, being so far my wife the unique sample of K1c1f found in Italy, and also K1c1 isn't so diffused here like other K subclades, like my K1a1b1e etc.


I have similar (uncertain ethnic origin) problem with my mtdna, though the earliest documented female ancestor is attested to have originated from Netherlands. Even with FMS done it still can leave my problem unresolved. mtdna is like that, inter-ethnic and slowly-mutating - that complicates a bit.

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