Also K1a2 from the Italian Refugium?


Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:03 am
The last reassessment of mtDNA done by Behar et al. (Behar 2012b) gives to hg. K1a2 an age of 13602.2 +/-3164.5 years.

The Ian Logan spreadsheet presents these haplotype:

1. AY495254(European) Coble K1a2 07-JAN-2008 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A3816G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T12477C C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
2. EF660927(Italy) Gasparre K1a2 04-JUL-2007 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8725G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
3. EU760854 FTDNA EU760854, -, English K1a2 08-JUN-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G C3318T A3480G A4769G C7028T T8005C A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G A10658G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
4. GQ281051 FTDNA K1a2 24-JUN-2009 A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T T8005C A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C C16201T T16224C C16278T T16311C T16519C
5. HM041971 FTDNA K1a2 06-APR-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1116G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G C2834T C3471A A3480G A4316G A4769G C7028T C7694T T8005C T8185C T8802C A8860G G9055A C9293T T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
6. HM065508 FTDNA /note="ethnicity:Italian; origin_locality:USA"
K1a2 21-APR-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8725G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
7. JN647926(Armenian) FTDNA K1a2 12-SEP-2011 A73G T146C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A G11914A A12308G G12372A C14167T T14530C C14766T T14798C G15024A A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C

I have indicated the ethnicity I was able to find ; out of 7, 2 are Italians, 1 English, 1 Armenian, 3 unknown.
These are the samples of Behar 2012b:
Sample Id: JQ703309
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: G3918A; A5301G; A5474G; G8557A; A11812G; G14410A;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:
Sample Id: AY495254
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A3816G; T12477C; T16093C; A16399G;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Coble 2004
Contact:
Sample Id: HM065508
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A8725G; A16399G;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
Contact:
Sample Id: JN647926
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T14530C; G15024A;
Topologically Missing: C146T(L1'2'3'4'5'6); A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6);
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
Contact:

Italian HM065508 has the mutation A16399G, present also in the unidentified samples of the Ian Logan Spreadsheet

On Mitosearch there are these haplotypes (1 I have just put from SMGF):

YKBS6 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C Not Tested First Name: Margherita Last Name: Pietro Year Born: Year Died: Country of Origin: Abbruza [Abruzzo] Province, Italy

CT5R8 129A, 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 146C, 195C, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C . First Name: Clara Last Name: Parson Year Born: 1867 Year Died: Country of Origin: Sweden

UNNGM 168T, 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T First Name: Caden Last Name: Tarica /Benveniste Year Born: About 1820 Year Died: About 1890 Country of Origin: Rhodes Island Aegean Sea, Turkey

WDTNK 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T First Name: Carolina Last Name: Mazzoni Year Born: 1880 Year Died: Country of Origin: Senerchia, Avellino, Italy

WRMMK 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C No Mutations First Name: Jane Last Name: Bennett (nee Martin?) Year Born: About 1790 Year Died: About 1840 Country of Origin: West Halling, Kent, United Kingdom

XFHSA 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T Contact person: Paul Renda [Italian surname]

XFHSA, WDTNK are Italians. WRMMK, CT5R8, YKBS6 either don’t belong to this haplogroup or aren’t decidable.
UNNGM is probably K1a2 with a new mutation (C16168T) and belong to a Jewish family of Rhodes Island with the surname Benveniste arose certainly in Italy.

Which my conclusion?
K1a2 comes from the Italian Refugium.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:02 am
Also K1a2 GQ281051 with the many and abundant mutations in HVRI (T16093C C16021T T16224C C16278T T16311C T16519C) is from the Isles because on SMGF there 5 people from the US of probably British descent.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:02 pm
Our anonymous reader received his FGS. He is K1a2c. Mitosearch TU8T7.

His HVRI,II,III are:
16224C 16288C 16311C 16519C 073G 152C 263G 497T 499A 524.1A 524.2C 524.3A 524.4C

Without 499A he matches on SMGF Andersdotter (Sweden)
16224C 16288C 16311C 16519C 073G 152C 263G 497T 524.1A 524.2C 524.3A 524.4C

Railey (Virginia, USA) has 16192T:
16192T 16224C 16288C 16311C 16519C 073G 152C 263G 497T 524.1A 524.2C 524.3A 524.4C

Three Italians (Anonymous, Lombardi/Di Sanzo, Canova/De Cet/Dalla Rosa) haven’t the mutation in 16288:
16224C 16311C 16519C 073G 152C 263G 497T 524.1A 524.2C 524.3A 524.4C

What should I think?

That K1a2 comes from the Italian Refugium.
Last edited by Gioiello on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
YDNA:
I2a2a1c2a3
MtDNA:
K1b2a3
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:54 pm
Gioiello,
you know, I have been at Balzi Rossi last week and I would like to know, which other italian refugiums are confirmed and for which timeframe?
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:47 am
zaender wrote:Gioiello,
you know, I have been at Balzi Rossi last week and I would like to know, which other italian refugiums are confirmed and for which timeframe?


Perhaps you know that when I began to interest me about this matter (the first year I wrote on a forum was during the 2007 on Rootsweb, but at the end of that year I was banned), nobody spoke of Italy like a Refugium. The Refugia in Europe were two others or three: the Franco Cantabrian, the Balkan and the Ukrainian ones.
I had done my Y test and was R-ht35 (now I know to be R-L23/L150+) and everybody said I came from Asia Minor, others said from Iberia. I began to ask me if I had come from the Middle, i.e. if I had always lived in Italy, and I began my struggle.
What makes me think to an Italian Refugium are the data which have come out in these last years: R-L51 is clearly Italian in its origin and also some upstream and downstream haplogroups. Also many mtDNA seems to me that, by their distribution, may have had an origin in Italy, and it is strange that nobody spoke of Italy when the first Modern homo in Europe has been found in Italy (about 45,000 years ago) and many others.
If we are hobbyists, what are doing the professional men? For what I know, only U5b3 has been supposed having expanded from Italy.
Certainly Liguria has played an important role in this, and I am thinking above all to the “Grotta delle Arene Candide”, but I think that the whole Italy may have had Refugia, from the Alps to Tuscany to Sardinia to South Italy. I don’t know if you know all my theory, but I think that Italy has been the Refugium of many haplogroups (Y and mt), and certainly, when I examined a few days ago hg. Y G2c, and found that the Italian Cigliano has 3 mutations (at least) in the 22 slowest markers of Anatole Klyosov, has seemed to me of the greatest importance.
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Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
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K1b2a3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:27 pm
Perhaps I cannot follow you in your "private struggle", as you call it, but I'm convinced, that there had been italian refuge areas and some haplotypes will have had their origin there. It will be exciting to confirm the one or the other.

What is the finding of a 45000 kybp modern homo in Italy? I thought, the oldest findings had been around 43 kybp in the Donaudelta.
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
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MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:51 am
Dienekes' Anthropology Blog: Earliest sapiens remains in Europe

02 Nov 2011
... years old in the case of the Italian "baby teeth". ... The re-assessments have further importance because palaeoanthropologists can now put modern humans in the caves at the same time as the stone and bone tool technologies discovered there. ... "What the new dates mean", Benazzi summarised, "is that these two teeth from Grotta del Cavallo represent the oldest European modern human fossils currently known. This find confirms that the arrival of our species on ...
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YDNA:
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:02 pm
thanks!
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)
User avatar
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YDNA:
U152-Z56-Z146
MtDNA:
K1a2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:54 am
Hello Gioiello,

You can add one more Italian to K1a2!!

Gioiello wrote:The last reassessment of mtDNA done by Behar et al. (Behar 2012b) gives to hg. K1a2 an age of 13602.2 +/-3164.5 years.

The Ian Logan spreadsheet presents these haplotype:

1. AY495254(European) Coble K1a2 07-JAN-2008 A73G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A3816G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A T12477C C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
2. EF660927(Italy) Gasparre K1a2 04-JUL-2007 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8725G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
3. EU760854 FTDNA EU760854, -, English K1a2 08-JUN-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G C3318T A3480G A4769G C7028T T8005C A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G A10658G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
4. GQ281051 FTDNA K1a2 24-JUN-2009 A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T T8005C A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C C16201T T16224C C16278T T16311C T16519C
5. HM041971 FTDNA K1a2 06-APR-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1116G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G C2834T C3471A A3480G A4316G A4769G C7028T C7694T T8005C T8185C T8802C A8860G G9055A C9293T T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
6. HM065508 FTDNA /note="ethnicity:Italian; origin_locality:USA"
K1a2 21-APR-2010 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8725G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C A16399G T16519C
7. JN647926(Armenian) FTDNA K1a2 12-SEP-2011 A73G T146C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11025C T11299C A11467G G11719A G11914A A12308G G12372A C14167T T14530C C14766T T14798C G15024A A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C

I have indicated the ethnicity I was able to find ; out of 7, 2 are Italians, 1 English, 1 Armenian, 3 unknown.
These are the samples of Behar 2012b:
Sample Id: JQ703309
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: G3918A; A5301G; A5474G; G8557A; A11812G; G14410A;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Behar 2012b
Contact:
Sample Id: AY495254
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A3816G; T12477C; T16093C; A16399G;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: Coble 2004
Contact:
Sample Id: HM065508
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: A8725G; A16399G;
Topologically Missing:
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
Contact:
Sample Id: JN647926
Verified
Unresolved Options:
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: T14530C; G15024A;
Topologically Missing: C146T(L1'2'3'4'5'6); A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6);
Country:
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference: FamilyTreeDNA
Contact:

Italian HM065508 has the mutation A16399G, present also in the unidentified samples of the Ian Logan Spreadsheet

On Mitosearch there are these haplotypes (1 I have just put from SMGF):

YKBS6 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C Not Tested First Name: Margherita Last Name: Pietro Year Born: Year Died: Country of Origin: Abbruza [Abruzzo] Province, Italy

CT5R8 129A, 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 146C, 195C, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C . First Name: Clara Last Name: Parson Year Born: 1867 Year Died: Country of Origin: Sweden

UNNGM 168T, 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T First Name: Caden Last Name: Tarica /Benveniste Year Born: About 1820 Year Died: About 1890 Country of Origin: Rhodes Island Aegean Sea, Turkey

WDTNK 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T First Name: Carolina Last Name: Mazzoni Year Born: 1880 Year Died: Country of Origin: Senerchia, Avellino, Italy

WRMMK 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C No Mutations First Name: Jane Last Name: Bennett (nee Martin?) Year Born: About 1790 Year Died: About 1840 Country of Origin: West Halling, Kent, United Kingdom

XFHSA 224C, 311C, 399G, 519C 073G, 263G, 315.1C, 497T Contact person: Paul Renda [Italian surname]

XFHSA, WDTNK are Italians. WRMMK, CT5R8, YKBS6 either don’t belong to this haplogroup or aren’t decidable.
UNNGM is probably K1a2 with a new mutation (C16168T) and belong to a Jewish family of Rhodes Island with the surname Benveniste arose certainly in Italy.

Which my conclusion?
K1a2 comes from the Italian Refugium.

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:15 am
Diana wrote:Hello Gioiello,

You can add one more Italian to K1a2!!


Many thanks, but let us know your results (in rCRS).
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