Also K1a2 from the Italian Refugium?


Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:37 pm
Bill Hurst wrote:So, mystery solved. Diane uploaded results to mtDNA Community yesterday and there they are as MC3351. She has no match. Dr. Behar has nothing to do with this. The results are not yet on GenBank.


Dear Hurst, it is a little believable that a result posted yesterday has already appeared in the Supplements of Phylotree, where it is not automatic to select the private mutations and above all the Topologically Missing ones and we don’t know if it has appeared to-day or if it was there from many days.
I think that what I said is more than a suspect. The same I wrote in the past about a test on L150 done on Italian Romitti long before he ordered the test, in fact the results arrived a few days after, and it was impossible if the test weren’t already done.

To Diana I say, but I have already said this in a previous letter of mine, that for me the test hasn’t been useless, but very important, also for what I have said above.
Your ancestress Vona was Italian, as I said to you, and this haplogroup is deeply rooted in Italy, at least from the Last Glacial Maximum.

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:29 pm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:06 pm
Gioiello wrote:
Bill Hurst wrote:So, mystery solved. Diane uploaded results to mtDNA Community yesterday and there they are as MC3351. She has no match. Dr. Behar has nothing to do with this. The results are not yet on GenBank.


Dear Hurst, it is a little believable that a result posted yesterday has already appeared in the Supplements of Phylotree, where it is not automatic to select the private mutations and above all the Topologically Missing ones and we don’t know if it has appeared to-day or if it was there from many days.
I think that what I said is more than a suspect. The same I wrote in the past about a test on L150 done on Italian Romitti long before he ordered the test, in fact the results arrived a few days after, and it was impossible if the test weren’t already done.

To Diana I say, but I have already said this in a previous letter of mine, that for me the test hasn’t been useless, but very important, also for what I have said above.
Your ancestress Vona was Italian, as I said to you, and this haplogroup is deeply rooted in Italy, at least from the Last Glacial Maximum.


Hi Gioiello,

Diane just said she just uploaded her results to mtDNA Community. MC3351 is her assigned number. What do you mean by "Supplements of PhyloTree"? MtdnaCommunity has nothing directly to do with the PhyloTree, which doesn't deal with private mutations, only subclade-defining ones.
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Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:21 pm

YDNA:
U152-Z56-Z146
MtDNA:
K1a2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:24 pm
Hi Bill, that can't be me! Gio posted this in 2012, see below..

Gioiello wrote:
Gioiello wrote:
Diana wrote:Hello Gioiello,

You can add one more Italian to K1a2!!


Many thanks, but let us know your results (in rCRS).


This sample from Italy with 153G was already known from Behar 2102b.


Sample Id: MC3351
Unresolved Options:
Verified
Partial Descendants:
Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A153G 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C C4677T A4913G G6305c
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C146T
Country: Italy
Geography:
Ancestry:
Reference:
Contact:

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:25 pm
Gioiello wrote:Your ancestress Vona was Italian, as I said to you, and this haplogroup is deeply rooted in Italy, at least from the Last Glacial Maximum.


I think this is unlikely, but in any case, it is highly uncertain. I would like to hear Bill's opinion on the possible geographic origins of K1. Costa et al presented many arguments for an origin of K in the Near East, but then they concluded that a European origin of K was more likely because of a pre-U8b sample found at Dolní Vestonice (Czech Republic) at 31,000 ybp. There are several K1 samples in Germany in the Neolithic, from the new Brandt et al paper, which might suggest that K1 arrived in Europe with Neolithic migrations.
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Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:21 pm

YDNA:
U152-Z56-Z146
MtDNA:
K1a2
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:52 pm
GailT wrote:
Gioiello wrote:Your ancestress Vona was Italian, as I said to you, and this haplogroup is deeply rooted in Italy, at least from the Last Glacial Maximum.


I think this is unlikely, but in any case, it is highly uncertain. I would like to hear Bill's opinion on the possible geographic origins of K1. Costa et al presented many arguments for an origin of K in the Near East, but then they concluded that a European origin of K was more likely because of a pre-U8b sample found at Dolní Vestonice (Czech Republic) at 31,000 ybp. There are several K1 samples in Germany in the Neolithic, from the new Brandt et al paper, which might suggest that K1 arrived in Europe with Neolithic migrations.



For certain we didn't come from the east! My family has always been in Italy with exception of possibly leaving Spain for Italy or Italy for Spain then back to Italy, that is the only reason I bring Spain up at all. As far as my family in Italy know, we are Italian through and through however my mother told me her great Grand parents met in Spain, she said one was in Barcelona and the other from Castille so far from one another, I don't know which one from where but this too is very uncertain and my maternal line most likely was an Italian who went to Spain, fell in love and came back to Italy. We have no Eastern roots whatsoever.

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:06 pm
Diana wrote: For certain we didn't come from the east! My family has always been in Italy with exception of possibly leaving Spain for Italy or Italy for Spain then back to Italy, that is the only reason I bring Spain up at all. As far as my family in Italy know, we are Italian through and through however my mother told me her great Grand parents met in Spain, she said one was in Barcelona and the other from Castille so far from one another, I don't know which one from where but this too is very uncertain and my maternal line most likely was an Italian who went to Spain, fell in love and came back to Italy. We have no Eastern roots whatsoever.



Gioiello and I are debating the ancient origins of K1, he believes that its origins were in Italy at the last glacial maximum, perhaps around 15,000 years ago. I think it is more likely that K1 originated in early farmers in the Near East, who migrated into Europe beginning around 9000 years ago. It is really difficult to determine ancient origins based on present locations of group members, so I think we will need more ancient DNA testing to settle the debate.

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:25 pm
To Diana I say that the paper of Behar et al. was published in 2012, but her FMS wasn't then, it has been added very recently. See # 1 of this thread where I posted the samples taken in consideration by Behar et al. for hg. K1a2.
To William Hurst I say that I consult these data by going on Phylotree and clicking on mtDNA tree Build 15 (30 Sep 2012) and after mtDNACommunity and after Human mtDNA Phylogeny. Search the tree: haplogroup... Of course mtDNACommunity and Phylotree are two different things, but probably linked.
To Gail I say that I too am waiting for the ancient DNA, but like the recent paper of Costa et al. we can do some extrapolations, and for me is probable that hg. K is European in its origin as Ashkenazi mt is European at least for the 80% etc., and of this we have a proof also from the paper of Elhaik et al. (The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting
the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses) about the Ashkenazi autosome.

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:29 pm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:59 pm
Diana wrote:Hi Bill, that can't be me! Gio posted this in 2012, see below..

Diane, the first sentence "This sample from Italy with 153G was already known from Behar 2102b." was in Gioello's post this morning, not in 2012.

Gioello, you keep saying the sample was added to "Behar 2012b." What does that mean? Was it added to the paper? I don't think so. Was it added to GenBank? I don't think so. The only place it has been added was to mtDNA Community, by Diane, yesterday. That is not adding it to "Behar 2012b." If it were on GenBank, the MC entry would have an accession number listed. It does not. If there was a K with any of the three additional coding-region mutations in this sequence, they would show up on a Google search. They do not. If there were two people at FTDNA with this sequence, Diane would have a match. She does not. Diane got her results yesterday. I saw them and explained them to her yesterday. She says she submitted the results to mtDNA Community yesterday. And there they are today! There is no reference to MC3551 or the three mutations in this thread, or on this website, before today.

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:29 pm
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:04 pm
GailT wrote:
Gioiello wrote:Your ancestress Vona was Italian, as I said to you, and this haplogroup is deeply rooted in Italy, at least from the Last Glacial Maximum.


I think this is unlikely, but in any case, it is highly uncertain. I would like to hear Bill's opinion on the possible geographic origins of K1. Costa et al presented many arguments for an origin of K in the Near East, but then they concluded that a European origin of K was more likely because of a pre-U8b sample found at Dolní Vestonice (Czech Republic) at 31,000 ybp. There are several K1 samples in Germany in the Neolithic, from the new Brandt et al paper, which might suggest that K1 arrived in Europe with Neolithic migrations.

Gail, I started working on comments on the Costa paper, but got distracted by another project that is almost finished. I'll get back to Costa soon. In my opinion, K1 originated somewhere in the Near East, probably in the South Caucasus.
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Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:21 pm

YDNA:
U152-Z56-Z146
MtDNA:
K1a2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:57 am
Hello Bill,

I have to say though that I did see it in this thread prior to getting my results which is adding to the confusion. MC3551, that's why I was confused when you said it was me. Honestly I have read this thread it was not added recently but last year... How do I find my number on mtDNA community?

If it helps I can provide user name and password.

Thank you to everyone helping.

Diana
Bill Hurst wrote:
Diana wrote:Hi Bill, that can't be me! Gio posted this in 2012, see below..

Diane, the first sentence "This sample from Italy with 153G was already known from Behar 2102b." was in Gioello's post this morning, not in 2012.

Gioello, you keep saying the sample was added to "Behar 2012b." What does that mean? Was it added to the paper? I don't think so. Was it added to GenBank? I don't think so. The only place it has been added was to mtDNA Community, by Diane, yesterday. That is not adding it to "Behar 2012b." If it were on GenBank, the MC entry would have an accession number listed. It does not. If there was a K with any of the three additional coding-region mutations in this sequence, they would show up on a Google search. They do not. If there were two people at FTDNA with this sequence, Diane would have a match. She does not. Diane got her results yesterday. I saw them and explained them to her yesterday. She says she submitted the results to mtDNA Community yesterday. And there they are today! There is no reference to MC3551 or the three mutations in this thread, or on this website, before today.
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