And K1a4 where did come from?


Posts: 2283
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Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:22 am
Also K1a4 is overwhelmingly European:

From Ian Logan Spreadsheet:
K1a4 11485
1. AY495261(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
2. AY495263(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
3. EF657295 mtDNA157(Europe) Herrnstadt K1a4 14-JUL-2007 A750G A942G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T T8588C A8860G G9055A A9667G T9698C A10398G A10550G C10560T T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G
4. EU130551(Italy) FTDNA K1a4 12-SEP-2007 A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G A12358G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G A16051G T16224C T16311C T16519C
5. EU564851 FTDNA K1a4 25-MAR-2008 A73G G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G G3010A A3480G C4137T A4769G G5237A C7028T A8531G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G G15930A T16224C T16311C T16519C
6. FJ348212 Irene K1a4 29-NOV-2008 A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4313C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A G9064A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C

Not only an Italian is documented, but also that from Irene, who is Irene Pichler, comes from the Rhaetian Region, then Italian Refugium.
But it is interesting to exam the subclade K1a4c1, more recent. Behar 2012b gives for K1a4 an age of 15940.3 +/-2342.2 years and for K1a4c1 3547.2 +/-2760.7. Then which links Armenia with Italy? These are the samples used by Behar 2012b:

JQ703523 Behar Haplogroup [K1a4c1] 07-APR-2012
A73G T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C5264T C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C C9759T A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A A12612G A13710G A13827G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C A16246T T16311C T16519C
JQ706020 Behar Haplogroup [K1a4c1] 07-APR-2012
A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C5264T C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A A12612G A13710G A13827G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C A16246T T16311C T16519C
HQ435872(Armenian) FTDNA Haplogroup [K1a4c] 01-NOV-2010
A73G T152C A215G A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C5264T G6267A C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G C10834T T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A A12612G A13710G A13827G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C A16246T T16311C T16519C
HQ538515(Armenian) FTDNA Haplogroup [K1a4c] 23-NOV-2010
A73G G143A T152C A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C5264T C7028T A7325G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A A12612G A13710G A13827G C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C A16246T T16311C T16519C

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:23 am
On SMGF there are 2 K1a4c1: 1 Italian (Grimaldi/Spera) and 1 German (Reibetanz/Reichel/Geuthel/Oertel).

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:22 pm
The expansion from the Italian Refugium is documented beyond any doubt by the Mitosearch data:

User ID HVR1 Mutations HVR2 Mutations
ZUCDD 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 315.1C
3PRXG 093C, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 315.1C, 497T, 523.1C, 523.2A
5B6YM 093C, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested
6KJD9 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 143A, 152C, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C, 497T, 524.1C, 524.2C, 524.3C, 524.4A
7TM5R 169T, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested
8U7BJ 224C, 246T, 311C, 463G, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 315.1C, 497T
A2KAY 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C, 497T, 524.1A, 524.2C
HS4Y7 093C, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C
KMMQN 169T, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested
NBMEX 169T, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested
Q455X 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C 073G, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C, 497T
QH3YA 224C, 246T, 265G, 311C, 519C 073G, 152C, 198T, 263G, 309.1C, 315.1C, 497T
V373B 169T, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested
vnxq3 224C, 246T, 311C, 362C, 519C 073G, 152C, 263G, 309.1C, 309.2C, 315.1C, 497T, 523.1C, 523.2A
XEAMS 169T, 224C, 246T, 311C, 519C Not Tested

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:18 pm
The only K1a4a on Mitosearch, with both 16168T and 195T, is TH5J4 from Greece and we don’t know if he/she is the same of the FGS

EU603401 FTDNA Haplogroup [K1a4a] 13-APR-2008
A73G T195C A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C6134T G6260A G6480A A6605G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G C16168T T16224C T16311C T16519C
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:18 am
Is kit# N3024 Italian?
or
very very old and gallic?

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:52 pm
stoeni wrote:Is kit# N3024 Italian?
or
very very old and gallic?


If these people are the same or closely linked:
N3024 K
224C,311C,519C 73G,152C,263G,315.1C,497T,524.1C,524.2A,524.3C,524.4A
N3024 Elizabeth Molzer K1a4
16224C, 16311C, 16519C 73G, 152C, 263G, 315.1C, 497T, 523.1C, 523.2A, 523.3C, 523.4A
6. FJ348212 Irene K1a4 29-NOV-2008
A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4 A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4313C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A G9064A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
I'd say that the samples from Irene (actually Irene Pichler) come from the Hutterites from Tyrol, and, as I said to you about your Y (hg. T), certainly they aren't of German origin, having come Germans very recently and being the population largely assimilated from previous peoples. Irene Pichler found there also the mt H41a and was searching for its origin in Central Europe, but H41a is also the mt of my father and my paternal grandmother (Italia Cheli: 1894-1959 from Tuscany), so I wrote to Irene Pichler to search for it Southwards more than Northwards. Of course she didn't reply.
If these haplogroups derive from Celt peoples or from peoples long older than them, we'll be able to know in the next future.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:26 pm
Gioiello wrote:
stoeni wrote:Is kit# N3024 Italian?
or
very very old and gallic?


If these people are the same or closely linked:
N3024 K
224C,311C,519C 73G,152C,263G,315.1C,497T,524.1C,524.2A,524.3C,524.4A
N3024 Elizabeth Molzer K1a4
16224C, 16311C, 16519C 73G, 152C, 263G, 315.1C, 497T, 523.1C, 523.2A, 523.3C, 523.4A
6. FJ348212 Irene K1a4 29-NOV-2008
A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4 A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4313C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A G9064A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
I'd say that the samples from Irene (actually Irene Pichler) come from the Hutterites from Tyrol, and, as I said to you about your Y (hg. T), certainly they aren't of German origin, having come Germans very recently and being the population largely assimilated from previous peoples. Irene Pichler found there also the mt H41a and was searching for its origin in Central Europe, but H41a is also the mt of my father and my paternal grandmother (Italia Cheli: 1894-1959 from Tuscany), so I wrote to Irene Pichler to search for it Southwards more than Northwards. Of course she didn't reply.
If these haplogroups derive from Celt peoples or from peoples long older than them, we'll be able to know in the next future.


but that marker matches the friuliani markers of 72367 and E7310
I can only assume it is not hutterite ...but ladin/Raetic
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:13 pm
@ gioello

My wife matches with a person from Pordenone , with surname Anese. This person along with an 2 x Austrian, 1 x German, and 1 xEnglish share same area of chromosome. They are all 5th cousins.............are these of any value to determine ancestry

Image

Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:48 pm
stoeni wrote:@ gioello

My wife matches with a person from Pordenone , with surname Anese. This person along with an 2 x Austrian, 1 x German, and 1 xEnglish share same area of chromosome. They are all 5th cousins.............are these of any value to determine ancestry

Image


It could be IBD (Identity by Descent) or IBS (Identity by State): the first is a real relatedness, the second is common to everyone belongs to a population, in this case the European one.
It is very like that your case is the second one.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:58 pm
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0056371

the 20 plus number of samples of people of K1 in sappada part of excel spreadsheet in the above link............how many are K1a4?
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