K1d, K1e, K1f from the Italian Refugium


Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:06 pm
I have said many times that the mtDNA is more useful to demonstrate migrations. I have found on SMGF, but probably they are known also elsewhere, some haplotypes of K1e (but the Isles, like Central North Europe till Poland, has also many K1d: more than 20 on SMGF) which are linked to that of Ötzi, K1f, and likely came from the Italian Refugium, where the haplotype of Ötzi remained:

73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16311C 16519C
(Reeves, England, but mother (unknowm) Wales)

73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16260T 16311C 16519C
(USA)

73G 150T 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16311C 16519C
(Sykes, USA ; Tynes, USA)
Last edited by Gioiello on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
YDNA:
I2a2a1c2a3
MtDNA:
K1b2a3
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:28 am
Gioiello wrote:. . . linked to that of Ötzi, K1f, and likely came from the Italian Refugium, where the haplotype of Ötzi remained:

likely is not proven. The different refuge areas are associated to the peak of the last ice age and findings in Oberkassel/Rhinelande, dated to 14000 bp clearly show the beginning of Europe's repeopling. The oldest confirmations about the occurence of K all are around 5 to 6 kybp, two mummies, one in the Pyrenees, several graveyards there, where K is the 3rd strongest HG after H and U, the graves in Eulau.
I see a gap of 8 to 9 kybp between the starting from the Refugiums and the confirmed findings of K. We still don't know, how many immigration waves in this gap we have to face and which is associated with the arrival of U8 and K in Europe. Their first step may have been in North Italy, but resuming an unbroken continuum is mere speculation.
(written in the refugium above Diano Marina/Liguria)
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:10 am
zaender wrote:
Gioiello wrote:. . . linked to that of Ötzi, K1f, and likely came from the Italian Refugium, where the haplotype of Ötzi remained:

likely is not proven. The different refuge areas are associated to the peak of the last ice age and findings in Oberkassel/Rhinelande, dated to 14000 bp clearly show the beginning of Europe's repeopling. The oldest confirmations about the occurence of K all are around 5 to 6 kybp, two mummies, one in the Pyrenees, several graveyards there, where K is the 3rd strongest HG after H and U, the graves in Eulau.
I see a gap of 8 to 9 kybp between the starting from the Refugiums and the confirmed findings of K. We still don't know, how many immigration waves in this gap we have to face and which is associated with the arrival of U8 and K in Europe. Their first step may have been in North Italy, but resuming an unbroken continuum is mere speculation.
(written in the refugium above Diano Marina/Liguria)


Zaender, I appreciate your posting. What you say is trustworthy, and I agree with you that we need proofs, and mine are only theories, but I think done “cum grano salis”, how said that soldier you have chosen for your avatar in forcing a blonde German girl. Anyway if it did happen many times, you Germans should have many Roman Y-s.

To your question I could answer that the gap between the Italian Refugium (I do mean that of the Younger Dryas and not that of LGM) is explained also by Behar 2012b by the very wide CI of these haplogroups. We wouldn’t understand why a subclade of K1* has become K1d and K1e many thousands of years later than K1a, K1b and K1c. Anyway I am very glad to discuss seriously all this stuff with you and every other interested in it.

Glad that you are passing your holidays in Italy, in spite of the euro’s issues and the goals kept in this last European Championship, not different from what has always happened in the past.

Good Holidays. I am in the 40° of my home, not so close to the Tyrrhenian shore.
User avatar
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
YDNA:
I2a2a1c2a3
MtDNA:
K1b2a3
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:59 am
Gioiello wrote:
To your question I could answer that the gap between the Italian Refugium (I do mean that of the Younger Dryas and not that of LGM) is explained also by Behar 2012b by the very wide CI of these haplogroups. . . .

with this I agree. I didnt reach to read Behars full paper, only the abstract, but I am like you mostly interested in the branching of K. I hope we happen to get ancient examples from the time frame between 8 and 12 kybp and more CR results.
Knowing about 2 FMS with my private addional mutation I felt free to anticipate a new branch of K1b2a2, but Mannis van Oven gave that to others so I hope now for K1b2a3.
Gioiello wrote:Good Holidays. I am in the 40° of my home, not so close to the Tyrrhenian shore.

We have enough with our 32° here. BTW, yesterday I had to think of you, facing a "Gioielleria" and understanding your Avatar name!
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

Posts: 2341
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:05 pm
I was wandering about your K1b2a3, that doesn’t exist so far. Now you have explained. I’d be very grateful to you if you let me know your results.

Gioiello is my real name, Gioiello Tognoni, and I am the unique all over the world with this name and surname.
User avatar
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
YDNA:
I2a2a1c2a3
MtDNA:
K1b2a3
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:37 pm
Gioiello wrote:I was wandering about your K1b2a3, that doesn’t exist so far. Now you have explained. I’d be very grateful to you if you let me know your results.

Gioiello is my real name, Gioiello Tognoni, and I am the unique all over the world with this name and surname.

Va bene, Gioiello, volontiere! I don't have any data files with me, but in about two weeks I could send all listed mutations to you privately, if you are really interested. I don't have a FGS, but a mix of three tests, covering probably most of my available SNP's.
please send me your adress to hartmut (at) zaender.com
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)
User avatar
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 pm
Location: Cologne, Germany
YDNA:
I2a2a1c2a3
MtDNA:
K1b2a3
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:48 pm
Tomorrow we will go for a real refugium, gli grotte Grimaldi.
Looking into tourists guides not much older than one decade, I was astonished to see, how much BS they wrote in usual.
Y (FXHD8) mt (D9M4P), MurtiX, DE1(DE22), DOD219, M111723 (M001628)

Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:55 am

YDNA:
R1b
MtDNA:
K1e
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:14 pm
I am haplogroup K1e and have never found anyone to match me. How rare is this haplogroup? I have tested with Family Tree and Gene 2.0. I am trying to find out where I come from. Any help would be welcomed. I wonder if it is Ashkenazi.

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:29 pm
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:59 pm
scrubtech wrote:I am haplogroup K1e and have never found anyone to match me. How rare is this haplogroup? I have tested with Family Tree and Gene 2.0. I am trying to find out where I come from. Any help would be welcomed. I wonder if it is Ashkenazi.

Hi Scrubtech. The new and very small K1e subclade appears to be restricted to Germany, Austria and the UK. Dr. Behar's age estimate for it is about 9,600 years. I see no indication that it is Ashkenazi or otherwise Jewish.

Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:55 am

YDNA:
R1b
MtDNA:
K1e
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:59 pm
Hi,


I see that I match this other person's haplogroup. My email address is grt943@aol.com. I also have a family tree and my family comes from the UK. If you would like to see if we have the same family please feel free to contact me. My name is Tia Gray


73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16311C 16519C
(Reeves, England, but mother (unknowm) Wales)

73G 152C 263G 309.1C 315.1C 524.1A 524.1C 16140C 16224C 16260T 16311C 16519C
(USA)

Regards,
Tia Gray
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