Sample VP82 R1b?

Any discussions regarding y-DNA markers, results or questions.

Posts: 1852
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:18 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:Which of these has the oldest haplotype, KT5TU 67,8G44S 67,PWN78 67 and 94BBE 76? There is an Armenian/Turkey cluster at ysearch also. Was this Z2103 cluster the result of an expansion from Italy> Turkey> Armenia?


These persons are all SNP tested:
N37658 Angelo Romitti, 1840, Suzzara, Lombardy, Italy Italy R-Y5586
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
13660 Henry Hollingsworth (born 1598) County Armagh, Ire Ireland R-BY3297
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 16 20 18 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 22-23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 13 35 15 9 16 11 28 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 12 11 30 12 13 24 14 10 10 20 15 21 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 11 11
B3248 Panchero , b. 1335 Val di Sole, Trentino Italy R-BY3297
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 12 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 16 20 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 22-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 21 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 12 28 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 12 11 30 12 13 24 14 10 10 19 15 21 13 24 18 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
Only the person submitted with the surname "Celestino" (which is an Italian surname) isn't.
The first series (15-10-12-12-14) from 16-10-12-12-15 is interesting.

About your question I think that we need more aDNA for answering that. Armenia and Caucasus have some haplotypes from Samara R-L23 and no older haplotypes has been found so far in the aDNA, but let's wait for other tests.


I looked at the Yfull tree and Z2110(6,100 ybp) is the paternal ancestor of all of these testers. I don't think that we need aDNA tests. We can see a lot from the location of modern branches, especially their locations and TMRCAs.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:47 pm
[quote="dartraighe"]
I looked at the Yfull tree and Z2110(6,100 ybp) is the paternal ancestor of all of these testers. I don't think that we need aDNA tests. We can see a lot from the location of modern branches, especially their locations and TMRCAs.[/quo

Yes but I am cautious, because I am linked with a French Basque and a person from the Isles (Winterowd/Barnum). We have 17 SNPs in common and after I have other 72 private SNPs as to YFull (but I have more), but the French Basque comes from HGDP and Winterowd (who didn't answer my letters) is tested from the worst Big Y, so I am not sure that we may have more SNPs in common for calculating when we separated.
Beyond us there is Nochev from Bulgaria, separated from us at the Z2110* level. Certainly having linked a Sardinian sample from Francalacci, tested at low coverage, but with a SNP in common with the CTS699 subclade (found in a Spaniard from South America and in Jewish samples) brings Italy at the centre of this haplogroup, but I am waiting that others samples come out. Russia has an haplotype, one only and recent haplotype. We'll know where it came from.
Certainly R-Z2110* isn't present in Samara, and I think having demonstrated that Samara lacks also the great part of Z2109*...I have written a lot about that, but I am cautious and wait for aDNA (when all these PhD-s will decide to publish them).

Posts: 1852
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:00 pm
Gioiello wrote:
dartraighe wrote:I looked at the Yfull tree and Z2110(6,100 ybp) is the paternal ancestor of all of these testers. I don't think that we need aDNA tests. We can see a lot from the location of modern branches, especially their locations and TMRCAs.[/quo

Yes but I am cautious, because I am linked with a French Basque and a person from the Isles (Winterowd/Barnum). We have 17 SNPs in common and after I have other 72 private SNPs as to YFull (but I have more), but the French Basque comes from HGDP and Winterowd (who didn't answer my letters) is tested from the worst Big Y, so I am not sure that we may have more SNPs in common for calculating when we separated.
Beyond us there is Nochev from Bulgaria, separated from us at the Z2110* level. Certainly having linked a Sardinian sample from Francalacci, tested at low coverage, but with a SNP in common with the CTS699 subclade (found in a Spaniard from South America and in Jewish samples) brings Italy at the centre of this haplogroup, but I am waiting that others samples come out. Russia has an haplotype, one only and recent haplotype. We'll know where it came from.
Certainly R-Z2110* isn't present in Samara, and I think having demonstrated that Samara lacks also the great part of Z2109*...I have written a lot about that, but I am cautious and wait for aDNA (when all these PhD-s will decide to publish them).


You must take on board that the elites buried in the CWC with 75% Yamnaya dna were R1a, not Z2103. At the very least we should see Z2103 in some of the CWC graves if there was a massive migration carrying R1b. We see also the TMRCA of some of the DF27 in Iberia does not infer an origin from an eastward migration during the BA. It would have to be an earlier date and no scientist has yet to say an earlier Steppe group brought it there.

Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:36 pm

YDNA:
R1b
MtDNA:
U5
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:00 am
No need for any comments.
Remember this map?
How things have changed.
http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R-Map.png

Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:36 pm

YDNA:
R1b
MtDNA:
U5
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:07 am
Gioiello wrote:If you did mean this sample from Apulia, Italy, I put on Ysearch from SMGF
VP8Q2 Picciritto Rignano Garganico, Foggia, Italy
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 14 15 15 18 11 12 19 23 15 13 12 12 11 13 23 10 14 12 12 15 30 24


I was wondering if perhaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82ad ... w_Sikorski was a branch of R1b?
SW2UT

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:27 am
silesian wrote:I was wondering if perhaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82ad ... w_Sikorski was a branch of R1b?
SW2UT


This haplotype could be very well an R-L23, but we cannot understand from only these values which subclade. H4 very likely should be lowered for 1, i.e. H4=12.

Posts: 1852
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:33 am
Gioiello wrote:
silesian wrote:I was wondering if perhaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82ad ... w_Sikorski was a branch of R1b?
SW2UT


This haplotype could be very well an R-L23, but we cannot understand from only these values which subclade. H4 very likely should be lowered for 1, i.e. H4=12.


What kind of test produced SW2UT's markers?

His closest is 4T4H4 37 with a Scottish surname and the closest to 4T4H4 30/37 is RUT3W 67 with a Welsh surname and RUT3W's exact match is P312* .

There was a large migration from Scotland to Poland 200-300 ybp.

Posts: 2173
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:10 am
dartraighe wrote:What kind of test produced SW2UT's markers?

His closest is 4T4H4 37 with a Scottish surname and the closest to 4T4H4 30/37 is RUT3W 67 with a Welsh surname and RUT3W's exact match is P312* .

There was a large migration from Scotland to Poland 200-300 ybp.


These tests on 17 markers come from some paper, thus SW2UT matches perfectly 4T4H4 at 16 markers (the latter lacks DYS635) because H4 in these tests has to be lowered of 1, but this doesn't mean that they belong to the same haplogroup. We'd need other markers and above some SNP. In fact 4T4H4 and RUT3W very likely belong to different haplogroups in spite of the numerous values in common.
DYS464 is very different (13-15-16-17 and 15-15-18-18) and 15-15-18-18 is often a Western haplogroup migrated to East Europe with soldiers and mercenaries, but it doesn't seem that this Pole descends from one of them.
Last edited by Gioiello on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Previous

Return to y-DNA Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest