The 2.5 factor

Any discussions regarding y-DNA markers, results or questions.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:29 am
Atim wrote:This is the way R1a and archaeological protoneolitic "Dęby-type inserts" to the Central Europe.
The archeological traces:
[...]
1) Azeria (south of Caucasus)
2) Edazani (Georgia)
3) The Crimea
4) Rudoj Ostrov
5) the village Szpakow (there cradle of Szpakowski UP1272 of the linies Volyn and Pinsk)
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1881.0
6) the village Stare Baraki
7) Janisławice
8) the village Dęby 29 (Kuyavia)
This mezolitic/protoneolitic archaeological culture Janisławice-RudojOstrov.


Atim, must I conclude that you think that the origin is in the Caucasus?
"This is the way R1a and archaeological protoneolitic "Dęby-type inserts" to Central Europe. The archeological traces: [...]".
We'll see next, but:
1) No R1a has been found in the aDNA at Samara, but "my" R1b-Z2103/Z2105.
2) The R1a-M459* sample has been found in Karelia, from EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherers), but many, and I amongst them, think that it is an artifice of the authors to validate their agenda, that EHG were different from WHG (Western Hunter Gatherers), i.e. those who wintered in the Western European Refugia.
3) Shpakowski isn't R1a-M459*, but the subclade R1a-YP1272, found so far also in Italy, Tunisia and nothing demonstrates that the origin were in the Caucasus. The ancestor R1a-M420* has been found in Western Europe and the Middle Eastern samples are very likely recent. Nothing demonstrates so far that its origin were elsewhere rather than Western Europe or Northern European Hunter Gatherers.
4) Of course we are waiting that other deep tests are done, also on the aDNA found, but I retain very meaningful that no R1a-M420* has been found so far neither in Eastern Europe, nor in India nor in Central Asia.
Last edited by Gioiello on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:46 am
This clade is recent (3900YBP) but the ancestor lived 14400YBP

R-YP1272YP1301 * YP1293 * YP1302... 62 SNPs12700 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 49002800 ybp" class="age"formed 14400 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp
id:YF02130BLR
id:YF02892new


thus there is no link of these samples with R1a-M417, born 8500YBP, if not in the fact that they descend from an ancestor lived 6000 years before:

R-M417F3166/M763 * V3842/F2957/M753 * CTS5979/PF6193/M700... 26 SNPs7300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 61004700 ybp" class="age"formed 8500 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp
R-M417*
R-CTS4385Z2464/S2848 * Z2461/S2846 * Z2463/CTS4385/M9837/S28474700 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 55003700 ybp" class="age"formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
R-CTS4385*
R-FGC9988FGC9999 * FGC10019 * FGC10005... 29 SNPs3700 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 55050 ybp" class="age"formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 225 ybp
id:YF01438ENG
id:YF02826new
R-L664Z2462/S12226 * L664/S298/CTS7083 * Y2894... 7 SNPs3700 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 45003200 ybp"formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp

Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:26 pm
Location: Paris region
YDNA:
G2a2b2a1b1a2a-CT4803
MtDNA:
H2a2a1 (rCRS)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:54 pm
They will find I am extremist and a fossil, but I think my following formula starting from date of Yfull is more correct with the real life in prehistory.

Yfull date > 4000BP , my date = Yfull_date * 1.6 + 8000 (* 1.6 for weaker mutation rate, 8000 for number of mutations double of the number of high reliability mutations in the last branches)
Yfull date < 4000BP , my date = Yfull_date * 3.6 (* 1.6 for weaker mutation rate + *2 for number of mutations double of the number of high reliability mutations in the last branches).

This gives
A0-T_______140,000 --> 232,000
A1_________134,000 --> 223,200
A1b, BT_____128,000 ---> 212,800
CT__________76,500 -----> 130,4000 at the beginning of the very warm and very wet Eemian interglacial, in accordance with the Homo Sapiens of Palestina, They survived the following cold and arid times along the Persian Gulf and the rivers coming from Zagros, Asir, Yemen, Dhofar mountains deserting the too cold Palestina populated by Neander.
D,E_________64,300 -----> 110,880
E1b1b_______42,900 ------> 76,640
CF__________68,200 ------> 116,800
C,F_________65,300 ------> 112,500
GHIJK_______49,200 -------> 86,700 beginning of warm and wet Odderade phase (until 75,000), beginning of the expansion towards India and south-east Asia
IJK_________47,900 --------> 84700
IJ__________46,700 --------> 82,700
I, J ________42,800 -------> 76,500 before the beginning of the first pleniglacial (75,000-60,000)
I1,I2_______27,500 --------> 52,500
R__________31,600 --------> 58,550 beginning of a better phase around 55,000
R1_________24,800 --------> 47,700 beginning of Upper Paleolithic
R1b________22,400 ---------> 43,850
R1b1_______18,900 ---------> 38,240
L389_______16,700 ---------> 34,720
P297,V88___15,900 ---------> 33,440 beginning of Gravettian, come from East Russia into Europe
M269,M73___15,100 --------> 32,160
L23________12,700 ---------> 28,320 before the LGM Last Glacial Maximum 26,000-18,000 and the partition of Gravettian to Solutrean/Badegoulian (L51) and Epigravettian (Z2105 and other hgs)
L51_________6,400 --------> 18,240 beginning of Magdalenian in Franco-Cantabrian area
L11__________5,600 --------> 16,960 beginning of melting of glaciers
P312,U106_____5,000 --------> 16,000 Also TMRCA of I1 and beginning of its expansion northwards from Upper Danube.
DF27,L21,U152_4,700 --------->15,520 beginning of expansion from Franco-Cantabrian refugia northwards and eastwards.
______________4,200 --------->14,720 birthes of numerous branches of I, R1a, R1b with the quick and importance warming with humidity of Bolling oscillation (14,700BP) then slow cooling.
______________3,900 --------->14,040 warming (less warm than Bolling) of Allerod oscillation
______________3,500 --------->12,600 beginning last cold phase
______________3,200 ---------> 11,520 end of glaciation, beginning of Holocene and Mesolithic
______________2,500 ----------> 9,000 beginning of Neolithic expansion into Europe
______________1,300 ----------> 4,680 Corded_Ware and Bell Beaker cultures
_______________ 600 ----------> 2,160 change of era
Last edited by palamede on Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:59 am

YDNA:
Adam-L74; R1a-YP4700
MtDNA:
H14a
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:55 pm
Gioiello wrote:
Atim wrote:This is the way R1a and archaeological protoneolitic "Dęby-type inserts" to the Central Europe.
The archeological traces:
[...]
1) Azeria (south of Caucasus)
2) Edazani (Georgia)
3) The Crimea
4) Rudoj Ostrov
5) the village Szpakow (there cradle of Szpakowski UP1272 of the linies Volyn and Pinsk)
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1881.0
6) the village Stare Baraki
7) Janisławice
8) the village Dęby 29 (Kuyavia)
This mezolitic/protoneolitic archaeological culture Janisławice-RudojOstrov.


Atim, must I conclude that you think that the origin is in the Caucasus?
"This is the way R1a and archaeological protoneolitic "Dęby-type inserts" to Central Europe. The archeological traces: [...]".
We'll see next, but:
1) No R1a has been found in the aDNA at Samara, but "my" R1b-Z2103/Z2105.
2) The R1a-M459* sample has been found in Karelia, from EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherers), but many, and I amongst them, think that it is an artifice of the authors to validate their agenda, that EHG were different from WHG (Western Hunter Gatherers), i.e. those who wintered in the Western European Refugia.
3) Shpakowski isn't R1a-M459*, but the subclade R1a-YP1272, found so far also in Italy, Tunisia and nothing demonstrates that the origin were in the Caucasus. The ancestor R1a-M420* has been found in Western Europe and the Middle Eastern samples are very likely recent. Nothing demonstrates so far that its origin were elsewhere rather than Western Europe or Northern European Hunter Gatherers.
4) Of course we are waiting that other deep tests are done, also on the aDNA found, but I retain very meaningful that no R1a-M420* has been found so far neither in Eastern Europe, nor in India nor in Central Asia.

Ad 1) Correct. R1a* was not associated with the culture of Yamna/Samara.
R1a* formed probably in the Central Asia, through the Middle East to the Caucasus and C-E Europe.
Ad 2) M459 could be formed the south from the Caucasus (Azeria, Azeriland, Iran)
His split (MRCA) made on the road/migration to Europe or in C-E Europe (Ukraine/Poland), in the culture Janisławice-Rudoj Ostrov (before he came to the lake Onega with people Wepses).
The cradle of the Shpakowski fimily (of their linies Pinsk and Wolhyn) is village Szpakow!
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1881.0
On the migration route R1a people and archeological Dęby-type tool inserts.
Ad 3) Shpakowski is YP1272, i.e. branch (subclade) of M459!
M459 is the closest common ancestor (MRCA) for Shpakowski and the archeological man from Oleni Ostrov (Wepse).
Underhill 2014 published that Wepses R1a are closest Polish R1a!!!
Tunisia?
It has long been written that in Tunisia is one small and young branch R1a, which landed in the fifth century, together with the Vandals from Przeworsk culture.
Ad 4) aDNA?
aDNA in this case can confuse us, because a man aDNA can be aDNA records many of his women!

Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:43 pm

MtDNA:
U5b2b
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:06 pm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 083718.htm

Date:
February 20, 2015
Source:
Geological Society of America
Summary:
"Considerable debate surrounds the migration of human populations out of Africa. Two predominant hypotheses concerning the timing contrast in their emphasis on the role of the Arabian interior and its changing climate. In one scenario, human populations expanded rapidly from Africa to southern Asia via the coastlines of Arabia approx. 50,000 to 60,000 years ago. Another model suggests that dispersal into the Arabian interior began much earlier (approx. 75,000 to 130,000 years ago) during multiple phases, when increased rainfall provided sufficient freshwater to support expanding populations."
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