About R0a again


Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:05 pm
1
Only 2 years ago Cerny et al. wrote

“Widespread interest in the first successful Out of Africa dispersal of modern humans 60 – 80 KYA via a southern migration route has overshadowed the study of later periods of South Arabian prehistory. In this work we show that the post-Last Glacial Maximum period of the past 20,000 years, during which climatic conditions were becoming more hospitable, has been a significant time in the formation of the extant genetic composition and population structure of this region. This conclusion is supported by the internal diversification displayed in the highly resolved phylogenetic tree of 89 whole mitochondrial genomes (71 being newly presented here) for haplogroup R0a – the most frequent and widespread haplogroup in Arabia. Additionally, two geographically specific clades (R0a1a1a and R0a2f1) have been identified in non-Arabic speaking peoples such as the Soqotri and Mahri living in the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula where a past refugium was identified by independent archaeological studies. Estimates of time to the most recent common ancestor of these lineages match the earliest archaeological evidence for seafaring activity in the peninsula in the sixth millennium BC.” (Internal diversification of mitochondrial haplogroup R0a reveals post-Last Glacial Maximum demographic expansions in South Arabia, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 2010).

A year ago FTDNA wrote under mt R0a2:

“Mitochondrial haplogroup R0a (formerly known as pre-HV1) is a primarily European haplogroup that was present in Europe beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. It occurs in very low frequency throughout Europe, and some descendant lineages of the original
haplogroup R0a appear in the Near East as a result of migration. It was probably one of the original mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe, and likely pre-dates the occurrence of farming in Europe. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of
this haplogroup”.

These new results from Tuscany demonstrate a deep differentiation from those from the Marche tested by Achilli and a very ancient presence of this haplogroup in Central Italy, but also in the whole Italy, if Achilli found a new R0b in Sicily:

Haplogroup - R0a2
differences from HVR1 da CRS: 16126C 16266T 16362C
differences from HVR2 da CRS: 60.1T 64T 263G 309.1C 315.1C
CR differences from CRS: 750G 1438G 2355G 2442C 2706G 3447G 3847C 4769G 5585A 7028T 8860G 11914A 12885T 13188T 14766T 15326G 15626T 15674C

2
It is also known that FTDNA, probably following the paper of Cerny, changed its mind, by saying that R0a expanded from Middle East. But the paper of Achilli quoted above found in Sicily the ancestor of R0a’b and now an Italian tested by FTDNA is an interesting R0a1*:

The owner of this haplotype was wrong to put his data on Mitosearch (ID: TZ2Y4), but these are his true data:

@58
@73
@64
204C
263G
315.1C
750G
827G
1438G
2442C
2706G
3847C
4769C
7028T
7822G
8705C
8838A
8860G
11914A
12373G
13188T
13401C
14766T
15326G
16126C
16271C
16291T
16362C
16398A

The ancientness of R0a1* is given by Cerny of around 22,000YBP, then probably this haplogroup, like others, is in Italy from before the LGM.
Last edited by Gioiello on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:13 am
It would be interesting to know who is this person tested by FTDNA, because he/she is the closest to this Italian:

146702 R0a
16086C, 16126C, 16291T, 16362C, 16398A, 16519C

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:53 am
It seems he is a Smith:
146702 R1a/ R1a R-M198 13 25 16 10 11- 14 12 10 10 13 11 29

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:48 pm
Who wants to know where R0a1* was born probably should give a glance not only to the Italian Mitosearch: TZ2Y4, but also to this UDBRU from USA:
064T, 189G, 204C, 207A, 263G, 315.1C, 16093C, 16126C, 16271C, 16291T, 16362C, 16398A.
And there is on SMGF another person from Canada (Waugh, Watchorn, Stone), with a mutation also in 16189, but I exhausted my time for to-day.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:28 pm
Mitosearch: QPTYM: Ann Stone, 1826, Ontario, Canada.

16189Y.

Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:38 pm
I doubt it is from Europe. Its distribution in pakistan and the arabian plate make it unlikely. And if it is European more likely the edge of Eastern Europe. Since that is the only migration that has taken place into these areas.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:18 pm
newtoboard wrote:I doubt it is from Europe. Its distribution in pakistan and the arabian plate make it unlikely. And if it is European more likely the edge of Eastern Europe. Since that is the only migration that has taken place into these areas.


Everything is possible. But Italy has:

R0a*: JF173361 (Italy, Achilli) and the Kalash probably you were thinking about is EU597493 with 60.1T

many R0a2* (not only in Tuscany as 23andMe wrote thinking they were of Etruscan descent: the same canard about the presupposed Oriental origin of Etruscans)

many R0a1*, the one I posted above and many of British descent who probably didn’t come from Pakistan but from the Italian Refugium. There is also an Asian from Kivisild, only coding region, and a Maroccan (HM185256), but, having the mutations C16291T like the Italian (and British) ones, it came probably from the Italian Refugium and not from Arabia.

I haven’t of course at my disposal FTDNA nor any Italian labs, but I bet it with all.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:23 am
Certainly the last paper of Behar et al.( A “Copernican” Reassessment of the Human Mitochondrial DNA Tree from its Root, The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 90, Issue 4, 675-684, 6 April 2012 doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2012.03.002) is important, but, about the problems by me raised, has given an answer? Absolutely not.

This R0a1*, for which I have carried other samples from Italy, even though partial ones, doesn’t appear in the tree.

The R02a, found by Achilli in the Marche and Tuscany, don’t appear, and is it the FGS of Patti Pruden (of maternal Tuscan ancestry), that labelled with the new R0a2m? The mutation indicated is A4767G whereas Patti has A4769G. Are they the same persons? Is it only a mistake?

And what about the recognized R0b found in Italy by Achilli? It is the other half of the sky, which is worth all the other, mostly South Arabian, reported.

Has Mr Behar answered my questions? Absolutely not.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:28 am
Mr Behar has posted this sample for determining hg. R0a1*::

SAMPLE ID: JQ702678
These are: "Private Mutations: A189G; T204C; G207A; T3394C; A7822G; T8705C; G8838A; A12373G; T13401C; T15461Y; T16093Y; T16271C; C16291T; G16398A".
These are "Topologically Missing: A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6); T58C(R0a'b)".


It is clear that this person, tested by FTDNA, matches the Italian Mitosearch TZ2Y4, I spoke about above, and those persons tested by SMGF I put on Mitosearch: UDBRU (probably Smith) and QPTYM (Stone from Canada).

None of the other haplotypes from Abu Amero 2007 from Arabia (DQ904235, DQ904237, DQ904239) reaches this depth in the haplogroup.
What is the conclusion? Is this haplogroup from Arabia or from Italy/Europe?

P.S. I thank Mr. Behar for having used my haplotype (HQ176413) for the subclade K1a1b1e, but there was written “Italy” about my country of origin, and this is the only thing missed.

Posts: 2443
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 am
Location: Pisa (Italy)
YDNA:
R- Z2110 (KV7Y2)
MtDNA:
K1a1b1e/HQ176413
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:08 pm
And certainly it would be interesting to test this sample of R0a1a from Trentino (Italy) found in the recent paper of Coia et al. (JoHG) with two mutations (16192 and 16224) not known elsewhere:

16126-16192-16224-16355-16362-58-64 HVR1-2 motif (16033-114)
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