Difference between U5a and U5b?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:17 pm
Call me crazy, but I still can't find much info on U5a [articles and such; whereas I am able to find tons of articles on U5b], so I went back to Wikipedia. If info accurate & correct, U5a arose some 20,000 yrs ago, and U5b around 24,000 yrs ago. My questions are:
Dos this mean that U5b is older than U5a?
Does that mean that the split took place somewhere in between?
Did U5a persons go back north while U5b people stayed south once the ice sheets started to retreat?
And a DUH! question: Are the mutations for these two groups that significant that U5 got split into an A and B groups?

It is possible that I won't get any answers, but speculation is welcome!!
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Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:36 am
Hi Sofia,

From Phylotree, U5a is defined by 2 mutations: A14793G C16256T , and U5b is defined by 3 mutations: C150T A7768G T14182C. In the new Behar paper the age estimates are similar, 22,440 ybp for U5a and and 22,794 for U5b. Previously U5b had been estimated to be about 5,000 years older than U5a, but the Behar estimates are based on a much larger sample size.

The number of mutations indicates that U5a and U5b diverged from each other during a period of slow population growth. H is a good contrast to illustrate this - H already has 87 named daughter groups (compared to only 2 known daughters for U5) and many of the H daughters are defined by a single mutations, so H daughters diverged in a popolation that was undergoing extremely rapid population growth.

I think this is consistent with both U5a and U5b diverging around the time of the last glacial maximum, and ancient DNA results indicate that they both expanded into Europe as the ice retreated. It seems likely that U5b was common in western Europe and U5a was more common in eastern Europe, but they they might have both spread throughout Europe around the same time.

Gail
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:39 am
Thanks, Gail!! I was also reading the U5a topic, and it was fairly interesting and highly educative. As a await for my subclade results, I am trying to learn about both, just in case. What i did learn from the U5a topic was the concept of refugia that might have been part of the split. It seems U5a is more Eastern European, as you mentioned, whereas U5b is more Western Europe. I still think y results will point to U5b, but then again, I was expecting to be H or J or T [very common in Spain, it seems], and instead, I came out as U5. So I am keeping an open mind.

I am very visual. Is there such a map about the migratory patterns of U5 only; one that delineates, sort of, the migratory paths of the U5 a and U5b? I have seen plenty with ALL the migratory mtDNA and Y-DNA, but not an individual one, just for one haplogroup. Or one that delineates only U?
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Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:28 am
sofiagelpi wrote:What i did learn from the U5a topic was the concept of refugia that might have been part of the split. It seems U5a is more Eastern European, as you mentioned, whereas U5b is more Western Europe. I still think y results will point to U5b, but then again, I was expecting to be H or J or T [very common in Spain, it seems], and instead, I came out as U5. So I am keeping an open mind.

I am very visual. Is there such a map about the migratory patterns of U5 only; one that delineates, sort of, the migratory paths of the U5 a and U5b? I have seen plenty with ALL the migratory mtDNA and Y-DNA, but not an individual one, just for one haplogroup. Or one that delineates only U?

I'm also interested in U5 history and migration. I guess you know Eupedia; there is a "Distribution of European mtDNA haplogroups by region in percentage" (Last update: February 2012). The resoltion ends with U5, but the collected info from papers is interesting to compare. The new Behar, Oven paper is missing from other Eupedia pages, where time estimates are given. I have never seen a map or table with U5a/U5b data and their distribution and/or migrations in Europe. I fear the HG is to scattered, "old" and to few results are collected to make a fine map possible.
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:13 am
Alpeu wrote:I'm also interested in U5 history and migration. I guess you know Eupedia; there is a "Distribution of European mtDNA haplogroups by region in percentage" (Last update: February 2012). The resoltion ends with U5, but the collected info from papers is interesting to compare. The new Behar, Oven paper is missing from other Eupedia pages, where time estimates are given. I have never seen a map or table with U5a/U5b data and their distribution and/or migrations in Europe. I fear the HG is to scattered, "old" and to few results are collected to make a fine map possible.


Hi Alpeu - Yes, I am familiar with Eupedia, but I have to confess I forgot about it until I saw the link. Thank you for sharing. I think I am beginning to get it. If I get this right, the split had to happen during the last ice age, and because of the slow population growth, we only have the two groups, U5a and U5b. What is entirely fascinating to me is how spread out this haplogroup is. Not necessarily U5, but U in general, if compared to other haplogroups. Gail's example, with H, makes sense now. The climate, the resources, everything is in play for rapid population growth, and with it, the multiplicity of genetic mutations that led to all the H daughters. I wonder if farming also coincides the the rapid growth of the H haplogroup. In terms of U5a and U5b, the split had to take place at a time when the climate was drastic, resources scarce, and thus, the continuity of a nomadic life, that left some to go east, while others west. Hence the split some 22,000 yrs ago.

Let's see: U5a is dated at 22,440 ybp and U5b 22,794. The height of the ice age was around 18,000. Even if the split took place some 22,700 ybp, we are talking about some 5,000 yrs of dealing with extremely drastic weather. The world is getting colder, ice seems to be happening everywhere, and now we have to search for game even further than before. This is a group that is moving further and further south, and in the process choosing two possible directions: west [Netherlands, Germany, France, England, Scotland, Ireland = Doggerland] and south whereas the other group, the U5a heads east [Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Hungary, Rumania]. Hmmmm.... I wonder if I can find a map of what the world looked like some 22,000 yrs ago, one that would show possible ice refugia.

http://www.nextnature.net/2009/04/mapping-a-lost-world/

This is as good as my search got... Will keep looking.
Attachments
doggerland.jpg
From: http://www.nextnature.net/2009/04/mapping-a-lost-world/
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Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:55 pm
Where does U5 among Indo-Iranians and Central Asians come from? Are they mostly U5a or U5b?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:14 am
This is what I understand so far. Some 22,500 years ago the U5 split into U5 a and U5b. My date is super guesstimated. U5 a is dated at 22,400 and U5b at 22,700, so I am choosing a middle timeline. U5b headed south and west, perhaps through Doggerland whereas U5a went south and east.

It is possible that what you find in Central Asia would be U5a. My educated guess is that the frequency of distribution of the U5a decreases as one gets further east. One possible reason for this decrease is ICE. In other words, it is possible that ice refugia were small as one headed east. Another thought is back-migration as the ice sheet retreated. On other words, as the ice sheets started to retreat, this group moved back east, seeking the large steppes with lots of game to hunt.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:38 pm
sofiagelpi wrote:This is what I understand so far. Some 22,500 years ago the U5 split into U5 a and U5b. My date is super guesstimated. U5 a is dated at 22,400 and U5b at 22,700, so I am choosing a middle timeline. U5b headed south and west, perhaps through Doggerland whereas U5a went south and east.

It is possible that what you find in Central Asia would be U5a. My educated guess is that the frequency of distribution of the U5a decreases as one gets further east. One possible reason for this decrease is ICE. In other words, it is possible that ice refugia were small as one headed east. Another thought is back-migration as the ice sheet retreated. On other words, as the ice sheets started to retreat, this group moved back east, seeking the large steppes with lots of game to hunt.


Interesting. But there are some U5b samples in the area too. I don't think the division is as clear so as to make U5b Eastern European. I think both wound up in Eastern Europe with U5b making the migration west.

What would be the phenotype and autosomal components associated with U5?
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:31 am
newtoboard wrote:
Interesting. But there are some U5b samples in the area too. I don't think the division is as clear so as to make U5b Eastern European. I think both wound up in Eastern Europe with U5b making the migration west.

What would be the phenotype and autosomal components associated with U5?


That is a whole new ball game. Phenotypes, if I get this correctly, is the results of the chromosomes one gets from each parent. Thus, the average 23 form mom and 23 from dad for a total of 46. The child will go on to marry, and those children will now have an entirely new set of chromosomes, with 23 from this child parent, and 23 from the woman/man this child marries. I don't think there is a way to link haplogroups to phenotypes. Technically, it is impossible.

Autosomal DNA comes from autosomal chromosomes that are found inside all cells in the body. Because these are so intrinsically connected to the individual, no two sets of autosomal chromosomes are the same EXCEPT in identical twins. However, autosomal DNA is also the result of our many ancestors. Remember, that we get one autosomal chromosome from our father and one from our mother, and they got theirs from the respective mother and father, and so on. Thus, this bring a diversity that is extremely difficult to tie in to a haplogorup.

U5 is a designation based on the gene sequencing on mitochondrial DNA, which is found inside mitochondria [the power houses of cells]. This type of DNA is circular, and thus it;s shape protects the "message", which is passed down UNCHANGED for hundreds of years. It is stable, thatthe mutations one finds can pinpoint specific migratory events, and this is why haplogroups cod be connected to specific ancestral geographical areas. But haplogoups could never be connected to phenotypes or autosomal DNA.

I hope this helps!!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:37 am
Maybe this will help better than all my bla-bla-bla-ing:

I am U5, brown eyes, brown hair, olive skin. I marry John Doe, who has blue eyes, blond hair, light skin. We have three children: 2 boys and one girl.

My daughter will be U5, since she is getting that from me. What she will look like will depends on a lottery of genes. She could have brown eyes, hazel eyes, blue eyes, or even green eyes [did I mention my father had green eyes? Thus I could potentially carry the recessive gene that yields green eyes]. She could also have red hair [did I mention my husband's mom was an fiery Irish redhead?].

See where I am headed with this? I am U5, my daughter will be U5, and when she marries her African Congo husband, their daughter will also be U5. Neither one of us U5 women will look the same, even place within the same phenotypal group.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290
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