U3 and the Levant


Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:36 pm

YDNA:
yes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:11 pm
Hello!
1. Can you explain how can we dissociate a U3 frm Levant and 1 frm Eastern Europe, & 1 frm East Asia?
2. Is there a subclade specific or prominent to Levantines (Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine)?
3. How frequent it appears among Levantines?
4. Can we say it penetrated Levant frm Caucasus?
5. Where do you locate most likely home of U3?
6. Is it frequent among Turkic and Tartars people?
7. How abt frequency in Iraq & Iran?
My son was tested U3 and his mother is Lebanese probably northern Syrian origin, while my mt is T1 & YDNA is E1b1b1. abu khalil, Palestine.
User avatar
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:12 am
Location: Ancestral location: Spain
YDNA:
I1d1 (I-M253)
MtDNA:
U5b2b3a
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:59 am
I am not an expert by any means, but here are some links that will help you get some answers:

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/subtree_U.htm
The Phylotree for U will show which mutations are typical for U3 placement.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_ ... ency.shtml
This link covers all the European mtDNA haplogroups, but I saw U3 listed, so you can take a look at the distribution for U3 in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup ... logroup_U3
Here's some info on U3 from Wikipedia.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNAU3/
This is a great site, and there is some info here that you might find useful.

http://italydna.blogspot.com/2007/03/mt ... up-u3.html
Link to a blog/project for a U3 mtDNA project.

Answers to your questions:
1. Not sure of your question here. mtDNA is mtDNA, and place of origin is not information that this type of DNA would yield. Even autosomal DNA mght yield percentages of population, but not a geographical origin or specific geographical location. Remember we are talking about several thousand years. I am assuming, based on what I read, that U3 came around some 20,000 years ago. In 20,000 years, people move a lot!

2. As with #1, it would be hard to say given we are dealing with a type of DNA that doesn't change much over thousands of years.
3. No info here but do take a look at the links above. Some may yield info.
4. Yes, it seems that this group originated somewhere in the Caspian Sean area, Caucasus. From there it would be easy to reach the Levant, and other areas of the Middle East, even Asia.
5. The most ancient U3 mtDNA comes form the Caucasus region, so it is a safe bet to assume this is the general area of the founding event for U3. Furter testing of populations in the area, plus archeological findings, of course, could change everything.
6. No info, but do take a look at the links above. Some may yield info.
7. Same as in #7.

Don't forget that mtDNA simply follows the maternal line. In other words, your wife's mother, her mother, and so forth. When you go down several generations, you are dealing with 18 different grandparents, and out of those 18, one if the U3 carrier. That gives me an idea... Here's a link to a tutorial on mtDNA that I found helpful n understanding all of this info: http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/17

And here is a link on your haplogroup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28mtDNA%29

Good luck with your search!!!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:26 pm

YDNA:
r1b1b2
MtDNA:
u3a2
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm
hi abu khalil, Palestine.

I can answer some of your questions as I have studied the distribution of U3 in the Near East

there are 3 main sub-clades: U3a, U3b, U3c; If you have HVR1 results you can usually distinquish these by the HVR1 pattern; U3a will show a change from CRS at 16390; U3c will show a change from CRs at 16249 and 16193; All three subclades will show a change at 16343;

Diversity is high and occurance is also relatively high all through the Levant (Syria, Jordan, Iraq) with 6 to 8 % occurance and very high diversity; Occurance (2 to 4 %) and diversity is also very high in the surrounding mountains north and east of the Levant (Zagros mts, Taurus, Kurdistan, Georgia, Azerbaijan and the Transcaspian area at the tip of the Caspian Sea) In these areas all three sub-clades occur;

North of the Caucasus, South of the Syrian and Arabian deserts and East of the central Iranian deserts U3 is rarer and diversity drops; Also along the Medditerean Coast (Lebanon, Palestine) percent and diversity appears to lessen; Armenia and Turkey are interesting examples in that although both have high occurance (4 to 5 percent) almost the only sub-clade is U3b (I have not found U3c in this area and U3a occurred in only 1 in 21 armenians and only among Sephartic jews in Turkey); Lebanon itself has fairly low diversity and as of yet I haven't discovered any U3a, only U3b;

So all we can say at the moment is that likely U3 first occured somewhere in either the Levant or the surrounding mountainous areas including the Transcaucasus and Transcaspian and Zagros areas about 30,000 years ago; Prehistorically the peoples in this area including Western Iran were fairly homogenous and indigenous;

These peoples slowly began to spread into surrounding areas about 20,000 years ago taking U3 with them wherever it first appears within this Near Eastern area;

Let me know if you think yours son's MtDNA is U3a or U3b or U3c; Samples from Northern Syria are relatively rare and of interest;

Jim

Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:26 pm

YDNA:
r1b1b2
MtDNA:
u3a2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:29 pm
Hi Abu

If your son's mtdna profile is relatively rare you may be able to learn more about its origin; Go to a site called Mitosearch and at the top put in "compare by Haplogroup"; Find U3 and for region Near East and North Africa;

About 9 user profiles for Lebanon will show up; 6 of those has a change at 093 of which 4 also has a change at 362-368; The latter appears to be unique to Lebanon, at least as far as we know at this time, even 093 has a limited distribution ; one has a change at 311c, which corresponds to Kurdish and Turkish MtDna profiles, although this is a relatively more unstable mtdna position;

If your son's profile is very standard, only a change in HVR1 at 343 (standard for B haplotype) or 343-390-519 (standard for a haplotype) then in order to make it unique he would have to have further tests HVR2 and if that is not unique, then the Coding region (a Full test which unfortunately because of the expense, few have done);

Anyway with careful research a some luck (uniqueness) you may be able to find a region in which his particular profile first appeared; Even though MtDna changes slowly and ilregularly I was able to isolate my own profile down to an area of about a 100 miles across; Not everyone can do this, so in that sense I was lucky.

Unfortunately there is little data on Syria itself, but there is some on the surrounding areas, Jordan, Kurdish, Turkey and Lebanon;

good luck

Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:48 pm

YDNA:
I1 - L1237+
MtDNA:
U3a1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:36 pm
Hi all,

just been reading through the posts, my MTDNA is U3a1c,

HVR1 16150T, 16301T, 16343G, 16356C, 16390A, 16519C

HVR2 73G, 150T, 263G, 315.1C

I have also had the coding region tested,

my mito search is, 8NG6B

any thoughts,

Paul

Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:26 pm

YDNA:
r1b1b2
MtDNA:
u3a2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:02 am
Hi Paul

U3a1c dominates the Atlantic coast of Europe; Norway, Iceland, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Portugal and Northwest Spain (Galacia and the Canary Ils);

There is some evidence that it may have originated in Germany about 3500 years ago, but it is most common in the above mentioned areas; I suspect, which of coarse is hard to prove, that it may have moved from Germany into Norway and spread through the Viking conquests

U3a1 itself seems to have originated in Eastern Europe perhaps 8 or 9 thousand years ago, at least I have yet to run into any evidence that it exists in the middle east; it starts to appear in Eastern Europe, Poland, Czech Rep, Lithuania and clearly moved West into central Europe and the Atlantic Coast; U3a1 is the dominate form of U3 in Europe making up about 60% of all U3 in that area, whereas in the Near and Middle east it is totally missing, as best we know. U3a1c makes up a large portion of U3a1

Jim

Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:48 pm

YDNA:
I1 - L1237+
MtDNA:
U3a1
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:14 pm
Hi Jim,

thanks for the background to U3a1, Im very much still a novice when looking at DNA although I find it very interesting,

I have four matches on both HVR1 and HVR2 on FTDNA and eleven on HVR1 only,

do the mutations in the DNA occur in the same way as YDNA ie, some change or mutate more rapidly than others?

thanks

Paul

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:30 pm
Jim, Paul - I recently started managing the FTDNA U3 haplogroup project, and I created a proposed new "U3a1c Group 1" for the people in U5a1c with the extra mutation at 16301T. All of the people in this group have ancestry in the UK and Ireland, and I have an age estimate for the group of about 2000 years based on 5 FMS test results.

I only have 3 FMS test results for U3a1c*, and only two with known ancestry, Germany and Canary Islands, and an age estimate of about 4500 years for U3a1c. There are 6 more people in the U3 project predicted U3a1c based on HVR test results, most have ancestry in the UK and 1 from Portugal.

For U3a1*, there are 8 FMS test results, only 4 with known ancestry and 3 of these are from Spain and 1 from Austria, and I have an age estimate of about 7600 years for U3a1. This is younger than the Behar estimate of nearly 9000 years.

I have an age estimate of about 16,000 years for U3a (a little older than Behar's estimate) and five U3a* test results with known ancestry: 2 from Georgia, 1 Armenian, 1 Switzerland and 1 Morocco. There are 4 U3a2 test results, 2 from Italy, 1 Switzerland and 1 Yemen.

My guess is that U3a had an origin in the Near East, and that U3a or U3a1 migrated to Spain by a Mediterranean route, and that daughter groups of U3a1 than spread to the UK and central Europe from Spain. This seems like a very different pattern than the Neolithic farmers who expanded from the Near East into Europe and who might have been dominated by haplogroup H. So perhaps these U3a1 migrants were not farmers. There is also an ancient U3a sample dated to about 6400 years ago found in Israel at Wadi el‐Makkukh.

Jim - I have not seen any 23andMe test results or papers on U3, so I'd appreciate any additional info and comments on the results from the FTDNA U3 project.

Gail

Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:48 pm

YDNA:
I1 - L1237+
MtDNA:
U3a1
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:51 pm
Hi Gail, I am a little confused,

I created a proposed new "U3a1c Group 1" for the people in U5a1c with the extra mutation at 16301T.

Does that mean I should join this new proposed group in U5a1c ? or stay in the current U3 group?

I have had the full coding region tested, my kit number is 167703, earliest maternal ancestor is Mary newton 1845 Ireland,

Paul

Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 am
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:41 am
paully1801 wrote:Hi Gail, I am a little confused,

I created a proposed new "U3a1c Group 1" for the people in U5a1c with the extra mutation at 16301T.

Does that mean I should join this new proposed group in U5a1c ? or stay in the current U3 group?

I have had the full coding region tested, my kit number is 167703, earliest maternal ancestor is Mary newton 1845 Ireland,

Paul


Sorry, Paul - that was a typo, I meant U3a1c, not U5a1c, and you are in the correct project, U3.

Gail
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