U4/U5 and Central Asia


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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:52 am
What do U4 and U5 in Central Asia represent?

Is it u5a or U5b ? What about U4? The one shared with Volga germans or NE Europeans?

U4-finno ugric?

I believe NE europe and Central Asia have u4> 7 perecent. Anybody know which population in each?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U4mtDNA


What do they represent? Is it "non native" ? Proto slav or finno ugric input into indo iranians? slavin/north Caucasian/tatar /bashkir/altai(ie Not IE)/tocharian or selkup ancestry? picked up by turks before making it to central asia?

Or are both indo-iranian in central asia and therefore "native " in some sort of way(meaning they belong to the ehtnic group that made up Central Asia at one point instead of being picked up elsewhere by that ethnic group or a third ethnic group (turks)
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:07 am
I am not entirely sure of your questions, but here is some info on U4:

http://u4haplogroup.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... s-ago.html --> I think this is the best link in that it will answer some of your questions.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U4mtDNA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup ... logroup_U4
http://www.isogg.org/wiki/MtDNA_haplogroup_U4_project

Good luck with your search!!!

ps: I am not an expert, just another fellow member seeking answers too!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:07 pm
Thanks you. It seems to be connnecting U4 to finno ugric speakers and siberians.

So is U4's presence in Indo-Iranian populations from admixture with these groups or admixture with some sort of southeast europe(maybe tripoyle)/caucasus group or the result of recent slavic/north caucasian/finnic admixture?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:26 am
One important piece of data is the age of this group, U4. I did a quick search to see if anyone had an estimated age group, but no luck yet. For example, U5a is dated at 22,400 years ago, and U5b at 22,700 years ago. With the date for U4, the answer would be a bit more obvious.

If this is a group connected to Finland and surrounding area, my thought I have is that these are people who returned north after the ice sheet retreats. The mutations for this group are so specific that a new group is born, hence the new daughter U4. From Siberia, it is possible to follow wild game into the steppes of Central Asia, and hence the possibility of U4 as far east as Iran and Iraq. Another thought is that as competition for resources increases, the group would also move south into the areas known today as Eastern Europe.

I know that U5 is the oldest group, dated at some 55,000 years ago. My educated guess is that U4 is a group that is more recent, but I can't confirm without some more research. Let me see if I can find a date for this group.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:31 am
Here are some good links I didn't see last night:

http://u4haplogroup.blogspot.com/2009_0 ... chive.html
"Case study: U4 is even more 'European' than U5: while U5 is relatively frequent all over western Eurasia, U4 is, with a few interesting exceptions, more frequent in eastern Europe and is either absent or very rare in the Near East and elsewhere. In the European north, an interesting exception is the Saami mtDNA pool, where U4 is virtually absent. We have constructed a HVRl-based phylogenetic tree for U4, using information from ~80 populations comprising a total of ~400 U4 genomes (Fig. 35.2).

http://redtambourine.com/2009/10/20/the ... aplogroup/
Haplogroup U4 has its origin in the Upper Palaeolithic, dating to approximately 25,000 years ago. It is widely distributed in Europe, and has been implicated in the expansion of modern humans into Europe occurring before the Last Glacial Maximum.

These two links [and the snipets on info from the linked articles] look promising. If U4 is indeed dated at about 25,000 years ago, then this is an ice age group. The height of the ice age [glacial maximum] was at around 18,000.

Hope this helps!!
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:59 pm
Thanks. Interesting stuff. I wonder who brought it into central asia? Hunter gatherers? What was the ydna of the men?

Or is it a recent migration ie with Indo-Iranians, turks(wouldnt make sense unless turkic groups are mixed with U4 carriers like tatars, bashkirs which I doubt), etc?

And if it is an Indo-Iranian marker was this an mtdna native to them since they were Northeast European genetically or something they picked up from finno ugric speakers a bit further north?-
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:56 am
newtoboard wrote:Thanks. Interesting stuff. I wonder who brought it into central asia? Hunter gatherers? What was the ydna of the men?

Or is it a recent migration ie with Indo-Iranians, turks(wouldnt make sense unless turkic groups are mixed with U4 carriers like tatars, bashkirs which I doubt), etc?

And if it is an Indo-Iranian marker was this an mtdna native to them since they were Northeast European genetically or something they picked up from finno ugric speakers a bit further north?-


The first question is a good one. My educated guess is that this was a hunter-gatherer group, since the estimated timelines for U4. The Y-DNA might be a bit more sketchy. I was taking a look at the Y-DNA migration map in FTDNA [came in with my dad's results], and I and I1/I2b seem like plausible candidates. This I Y-DNA seems to have a possible origin in either the Middle East or Southern Europe. What is most likely is that they took refuge during the Ice Age in the Mediterranean. Another possible candidate would be R, more specifically R1 [but I can't see if this is a group that moved into Europe, and then went north to Finland and Siberia the way it is with I1/I2b.

As for the third question, I am not entirely sure, U had a Central Asia origin. Bryan Sykes puts U5 in Greece, and so I wouldn't discard the idea that U4 has an Indo-Iranian marker. One possibility, given the timelines, and the LGM, is that this group moved along the Mediterranean corridor, and that eventually headed north as the ice sheets retreated. Why? Perhaps too much competition for resources in Central, Western, and Eastern Europe, leaving Northern Europe as an ideal place for expansion. Perhaps they were pushed by other groups as well. J and H are very well distributed in Europe as well. Thus, this U4 mtDNA might be "native" to Indo-Iranian groups that moved into Europe some 12-10,000 yrs ago?
________________________________________________________________________________________
Maternal surnames: Gelpí, Lebrón, Ruiz, Vientos, Mendez, Jardines, Marty, Cintra, Crisostomos, Orta, Perez, Torres
Paternal surnames: Ramírez, Jiménez/Gimenes, Rodríguez, López, Pagán, Jacome, Rivera, del Toro, Figueroa, Carlo

Paternal mtDNA: A2k1
gedMatch ID: FN105290

Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:36 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:45 am
sofiagelpi wrote:
newtoboard wrote:Thanks. Interesting stuff. I wonder who brought it into central asia? Hunter gatherers? What was the ydna of the men?

Or is it a recent migration ie with Indo-Iranians, turks(wouldnt make sense unless turkic groups are mixed with U4 carriers like tatars, bashkirs which I doubt), etc?

And if it is an Indo-Iranian marker was this an mtdna native to them since they were Northeast European genetically or something they picked up from finno ugric speakers a bit further north?-


The first question is a good one. My educated guess is that this was a hunter-gatherer group, since the estimated timelines for U4. The Y-DNA might be a bit more sketchy. I was taking a look at the Y-DNA migration map in FTDNA [came in with my dad's results], and I and I1/I2b seem like plausible candidates. This I Y-DNA seems to have a possible origin in either the Middle East or Southern Europe. What is most likely is that they took refuge during the Ice Age in the Mediterranean. Another possible candidate would be R, more specifically R1 [but I can't see if this is a group that moved into Europe, and then went north to Finland and Siberia the way it is with I1/I2b.

As for the third question, I am not entirely sure, U had a Central Asia origin. Bryan Sykes puts U5 in Greece, and so I wouldn't discard the idea that U4 has an Indo-Iranian marker. One possibility, given the timelines, and the LGM, is that this group moved along the Mediterranean corridor, and that eventually headed north as the ice sheets retreated. Why? Perhaps too much competition for resources in Central, Western, and Eastern Europe, leaving Northern Europe as an ideal place for expansion. Perhaps they were pushed by other groups as well. J and H are very well distributed in Europe as well. Thus, this U4 mtDNA might be "native" to Indo-Iranian groups that moved into Europe some 12-10,000 yrs ago?



Why is U5 put in Greece? That doesn't make any sense to me. It isn't as common there nor is its diversity highest there when compared to Northern populations.

Also Indo-Iranians never had to move North. They descend from yamna which is north of Greece.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:54 am
Isn't the oldest U5 found in Iberia? is it possible it originated there?

And what does explain the U5a and U5b haplotypes in South and Central Asia? Does a Western origin make sense for U5b when certain branches seem to be Eastern European dominated. Maybe U5b is more Central European and the steepes were populated from here explaining its movements eastwards? Unrelated but does anybody know if U2e is also considered a hunter gatherers group like U4/U5 and if I4 ever made its way to Central Asia?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:42 pm
The oldest definite U5 from ancient DNA was from Erralla (Gipuzkoa), Spain - 12,300 BP, but the estimated date of origin from Behar et al 2012 is 30,248 BP, which seems reasonable to me. U5 appears to have arisen somewhere in Europe well before the Ice Age, because it appears to have sheltered in several of the Ice Age refugia and then spread out from there when the climate improved. U5b probably spread mainly from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge. Since the distribution of U5a is weighted towards Eastern Europe, it may have sheltered in an Ice Age refuge in south-eastern Europe.

U4 too is more eastern, but is found among hunter-gatherers from central Europe, so it spread quite widely in the Mesolithic. Behar et al 2012 estimate a date of 17,493 years ago, while Soares estimated it at c. 20,000 BP. Both U5 and U4 appear among steppe nomads, as you know. U4d may turn out to be related to Finno-Ugric speakers. It was identified in one of the Pitted Ware foragers from Gotland. This haplogroup was only recognized in 2008 from complete mitochondrial genome sequencing. Since present databases generally contain results from much more limited mtDNA testing, the modern distribution of U4d is unknown. It certainly includes some Tatars from the Volga-Ural region of Russia. They are descendants of the Bulgar and Kipchak Turkic tribes who in the 8th century AD settled on the Volga, where they mingled with Ugric-speaking peoples
Last edited by JeanM on Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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